Comparing the tone of three different "boutique" cables

[hdracer]

Thanks for going through all the hassles & expense of doing this. We now know that there really isn't much if any difference in tone of cables. That leaves build quality, warranty & customer service when we make our decisions on what cable we want to spend our money on.

 

[Marlat]

Subscibed. I love these threads. They are basically a "permitted" religion vs science debate in the public area of TB!

 

[baba]

Subscibed. I love these threads. They are basically a "permitted" religion vs science debate in the public area of TB!

Ha! Awesome Mark.

 

[Spencer!]

It's just that when we expect to hear differences, we do hear them.
)

Sometimes we even hear differences when we don't expect to hear them. I was given one of those fancy ESP power cords a few weeks ago, and I was adamant it wouldn't make a difference. To my surprise, I actually did hear a subtle difference compared to the power cord that came with my Markbass. I had a friend do a blind test on me, and it turns out I couldn't tell the difference.

 

[scotch]

Sometimes we even hear differences when we don't expect to hear them. I was given one of those fancy ESP power cords a few weeks ago, and I was adamant it wouldn't make a difference. To my surprise, I actually did hear a subtle difference compared to the power cord that came with my Markbass. I had a friend do a blind test on me, and it turns out I couldn't tell the difference.

Phew! You made me nervous for a minute there!

 

[chadds]

But science tastes better than politics!

 

[bongomania]

Is the testing method taking a number of cables using the same input source i.e. a recording from the same device and then listening or measuring the output for differences?

This first test method here is as follows:
RTA software (TrueRTA) generates a pink noise test signal, and sends it to the output of my audio converter (a PreSonus Firestudio Mobile). The cable being tested is plugged into the output of that box, and the other end of the cable is plugged into the input. The input is connected back to the RTA software, which then performs a spectrum analysis by comparing the input against the output. Each reading gets saved in a memory location, so they can be overlaid or otherwise compared.

I'm still waiting on the arrival of the capacitance meter I ordered, but I did receive some of the cables I ordered, so here is another spectrum analysis shot:
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I think this forum shrinks attached photos to fit, so click on the link to see the full-size version.

Musician's Gear 20', $8.89, approx. 1 ohm resistance
Analysis + 20', $159.00, approx. 0.2 ohms resistance
Horizon 20', $10.99, approx. 0.8 ohms
Evidence 20', $155.00, approx. 0.3 ohms

So the expensive cables do have demonstrably lower resistance than the cheaper ones. Also, interestingly, the resistance readings for the two cheap ones bounced all over the map, from very high to very low, so the numbers I picked were the numbers they settled on for the longest period; whereas both of the expensive ones were very stable in their readings. Now, it's important to note that my DMM is a cheap one, and its accuracy in this very low resistance range is questionable. So take this bit about the resistance as an "interesting observation" rather than hard scientific data. I'll improve on that accuracy later.

 

[Phil Smith]

Sometimes we even hear differences when we don't expect to hear them. I was given one of those fancy ESP power cords a few weeks ago, and I was adamant it wouldn't make a difference. To my surprise, I actually did hear a subtle difference compared to the power cord that came with my Markbass. I had a friend do a blind test on me, and it turns out I couldn't tell the difference.

New stuff always sounds better even if it doesn't sound any different.

 

[ggunn]

Yep I agree. In studying some tests of watch tones, I saw that the results were based on the participants responses. Those were based on questions. That's were I saw the differences based on how they were asked.

I've experienced the placebo effect, turning up the eq on a channel of a board hearing increased highs only to see that that channel wasn't even on.

It happened to me just the other night. We were setting up for a gig on a house PA we weren't familiar with, and we had spent about 15 minutes painstakingly EQing the mains and monitors, when I noticed this little unlabeled button under each EQ section. I pushed them, a pair of LED's came on, and both the mains and monitors went into screaming feedback. D'OH!!!

 

[fdeck]

This first test method here is as follows:
RTA software (TrueRTA) generates a pink noise test signal, and sends it to the output of my audio converter (a PreSonus Firestudio Mobile). The cable being tested is plugged into the output of that box, and the other end of the cable is plugged into the input. The input is connected back to the RTA software, which then performs a spectrum analysis by comparing the input against the output. Each reading gets saved in a memory location, so they can be overlaid or otherwise compared.

I'm still waiting on the arrival of the capacitance meter I ordered, but I did receive some of the cables I ordered, so here is another spectrum analysis shot:
Link Removed
Link Removed
I think this forum shrinks attached photos to fit, so click on the link to see the full-size version.

Musician's Gear 20', $8.89, approx. 1 ohm resistance
Analysis + 20', $159.00, approx. 0.2 ohms resistance
Horizon 20', $10.99, approx. 0.8 ohms
Evidence 20', $155.00, approx. 0.3 ohms

So the expensive cables do have demonstrably lower resistance than the cheaper ones. Also, interestingly, the resistance readings for the two cheap ones bounced all over the map, from very high to very low, so the numbers I picked were the numbers they settled on for the longest period; whereas both of the expensive ones were very stable in their readings. Now, it's important to note that my DMM is a cheap one, and its accuracy in this very low resistance range is questionable. So take this bit about the resistance as an "interesting observation" rather than hard scientific data. I'll improve on that accuracy later.

I'll bet the cheaper cables, if they don't have gold plated plugs, develop a thin oxide layer that you have to rub through with your test probes. This oxide also wipes off when you insert the plug into a jack, so it's not really an electrical issue. Measuring really low resistances is tricky with a typical DMM. But if your amp has a typical input impedance, than none of those resistance values will affect your overall response -- as confirmed by your measurements.

 

[A440Hz]

I bought some Mogami cable (without connectors) and made some of my own with Neutrik connectors. Mogami has measurably lower capacitance. I don't know how much of a difference it really makes, but it's a great cable physically and otherwise (the connectors I got have their own strain relief, so no need for heat shrink tubing), so I'm happy. I've seen similar cables for $60, and I paid about $25 and did some labor. Well worth it.

Also, I have two Spectraflex braided jacket cables that I've been using for 17 years without issues. Love 'em. I've never even done any soldering on them.

 

[seanm]

I would think that a low impedance input source (like a passive bass) would show more difference between the cables since you would get more roll off on the high end.

A P bass pickup, for example, can be modeled with an inductor and a resistor in series. Fender is even good enough to give you the values: L = 6.4 henries R = 10.5k. Maybe you could try wiring that up and running the tests through that?

 

[bongomania]

Sure, I can do that. I don't have any inductors handy, but I need to order some other components anyway...

Side note: I'm looking at low-range ohmmeters (milliohm meters), and they seem to fall in two categories: insanely overpriced new ones, and 1940's-60's vintage analog units for cheap. Are those old analog ones any good? Too much of a crap shoot?

 

[BrBss]

Sure, I can do that. I don't have any inductors handy, but I need to order some other components anyway...

Side note: I'm looking at low-range ohmmeters (milliohm meters), and they seem to fall in two categories: insanely overpriced new ones, and 1940's-60's vintage analog units for cheap. Are those old analog ones any good? Too much of a crap shoot?

To be perfectly honest, when you have Hundreds of thousands of ohms for volume and tone pots, and hundreds of thousands of ohms for the input impedance of an amplifier, I can't see a need to measure in thousandths of an ohm.

Just my $0.02.

 

[Deathblade Eric]

Sure, I can do that. I don't have any inductors handy, but I need to order some other components anyway...

Side note: I'm looking at low-range ohmmeters (milliohm meters), and they seem to fall in two categories: insanely overpriced new ones, and 1940's-60's vintage analog units for cheap. Are those old analog ones any good? Too much of a crap shoot?

The downside with a lot of the older meters (like the once-industry-standard AVO 7 & 8 models) is that they appreciably load the circuit. This can be advantageous in some situations, but might skew your results with the cables.

 

[fdeck]

Sure, I can do that. I don't have any inductors handy, but I need to order some other components anyway...

Side note: I'm looking at low-range ohmmeters (milliohm meters), and they seem to fall in two categories: insanely overpriced new ones, and 1940's-60's vintage analog units for cheap. Are those old analog ones any good? Too much of a crap shoot?

You could measure some cables with a pickup (or even an entire bass) in series with the cable. If you do it with the entire bass, you will pick up some measurable line noise, which you can just ignore.

 

[bongomania]

OK, I just did the RTA on the cables in series with a P-bass pickup.

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Click the link to see it full-sized. As you can see though, while the pickup drastically changed the overall frequency spectrum, all eight cables performed exactly identically. Hopefully within a few days I'll be able to test the capacitance, and within two weeks I'll be able to test the timing and accuracy of transient peaks.

Cables in this test:

Analysis Plus Bass Oval 20', $155
Elixir Premium 20', $70
Evidence Audio Lyric HG 20', $159
Horizon standard 20', $11
Lava Magma 20', $25
Monster Bass 21', $50
Musician's Gear standard 20', $9
Planet Waves Cable Station 20', $23 (approx)

 

[Third Basser]

This is epic. you should seriously publish this (and then maybe Monster and the others will try to pay you off to keep quiet!) good job

 

[colcifer]

OK, I just did the RTA on the cables in series with a P-bass pickup.

Link Removed
Link Removed

Click the link to see it full-sized. As you can see though, while the pickup drastically changed the overall frequency spectrum, all eight cables performed exactly identically. Hopefully within a few days I'll be able to test the capacitance, and within two weeks I'll be able to test the timing and accuracy of transient peaks.

Cables in this test:

Analysis Plus Bass Oval 20', $155
Elixir Premium 20', $70
Evidence Audio Lyric HG 20', $159
Horizon standard 20', $11
Lava Magma 20', $25
Monster Bass 21', $50
Musician's Gear standard 20', $9
Planet Waves Cable Station 20', $23 (approx)

'exactly identically' is redundant (can't stand stuff like that- sorry).

Great post otherwise; thanks a lot, Bongo.

-c

 

[fdeck]

OK, I just did the RTA on the cables in series with a P-bass pickup.

Link Removed
Link Removed

Click the link to see it full-sized. As you can see though, while the pickup drastically changed the overall frequency spectrum, all eight cables performed exactly identically. Hopefully within a few days I'll be able to test the capacitance, and within two weeks I'll be able to test the timing and accuracy of transient peaks.

Cables in this test:

Analysis Plus Bass Oval 20', $155
Elixir Premium 20', $70
Evidence Audio Lyric HG 20', $159
Horizon standard 20', $11
Lava Magma 20', $25
Monster Bass 21', $50
Musician's Gear standard 20', $9
Planet Waves Cable Station 20', $23 (approx)

Bongo, I'm really impressed by your testing. One more thing to look at is the input impedance of your RTA, to make sure it resembles the input conditions of an actual amp.