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Comparing the tone of three different "boutique" cables

#441
It is normally a cold day in hell before I would sit and read a 22 page thread start-to-finish, but here I am patting myself on the back for doing it. Damn fine work bongo and team.

Best. Thread. On. TB.

I'll probably continue to buy mid-priced cables purely for durability and reliability, but I'm glad to see some fellow scientists working to put some hard facts behind our long-standing suspicion that high end cables and their manufacturers' claims are nothing but a big marketing scam. Its hardly a secret that cables are one of if not the largest markups in the electronics industry (just bought a 3' HDMI-HDMI cable online the other day for $5 including shipping that would've cost me at least $30-50 if I went through a retailer, it isn't flashy but it works just fine, cue double blind and expectation arguments ad nauseum), so I'm honestly not too shocked that cables in the music industry are no exception.
 
#442
BillW87 said:
(just bought a 3' HDMI-HDMI cable online the other day for $5 including shipping that would've cost me at least $30-50 if I went through a retailer, it isn't flashy but it works just fine, cue double blind and expectation arguments ad nauseum), so I'm honestly not too shocked that cables in the music industry are no exception.
Click to expand...

Hdmi is digital. Either the 1 and 0 get there, or they don't.
 
#444
Just for one more perspective on the subject, I've been corresponding a bit with Bill Whitlock, president and chief engineer of Jensen Transformers, and he gave me permission to quote this bit from one of his emails:

"It is extremely difficult to demonstrate differences in cables. In general, the effects are so subtle that they simply can't be measured (and IMHO, not heard either) unless they are measured or auditioned in completely irrelevant and contrived conditions."
 
#445
bongomania said:
Just for one more perspective on the subject, I've been corresponding a bit with Bill Whitlock, president and chief engineer of Jensen Transformers, and he gave me permission to quote this bit from one of his emails:

"It is extremely difficult to demonstrate differences in cables. In general, the effects are so subtle that they simply can't be measured (and IMHO, not heard either) unless they are measured or auditioned in completely irrelevant and contrived conditions."
Click to expand...

....yeah, but I read from an anonymous poster in an internet chat room that he can hear the difference! Apparently, if you put on a blindfold it increases your auditory abilities by a factor of 100.

Sorry, couldn't help myself. :)
 
#448
bongomania said:
:p Not yet, but I would not be surprised--he takes a dim view of magic mumbo-jumbo in audio marketing.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've met him several times, took one of his classes on Ground Loops at the CEDIA Expo a few years ago, and read his white paper on Designer Cables (sic)...and he managed to squeeze the word "floobydust" into every single one of those interactions! It's apparently his favorite euphemism for "snake oil".
 
#450
Just to add some fuel to the fire...

I was hunting through my attic this morning, and I came across two serious audiophile cables (Nordost Quattro Fil) that had belonged to my grandfather who was a hardcore audiophile. He had a listening station that must've cost him upwards of $50k and included two studer reel to reel (A802's, which I also have, and would love to sell) I looked up the Nordost quattro fil cables and found out that they sold new in 1999 for $1600 per metre pair. Since grandpa's cables were 2.38 meters, he must've paid $3800!:eek:

I have them up on ebay, since I have virtually no use for them, and don't have the ears to needs $1600 xlr cables. I found this review of these cables,
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/db06.htm
,
and was struck by all the language about how some cables brought out more bass, or let you hear the mallets hitting drums heads, that sort of thing. If you read the above article by a professional reviewer, and then this article by an amateur who bought them used:
Invalid Link Removed

you can see a similar experience in the reviews on this page. In either case, the reviews attribute VAST changes in tone based on the cables used. Since this thread has proved that virtually all bass cables will sound the same, maybe the next issue should be these super high end cables and their audiophile users. For playback purposes, does it really make that much of a difference what kind of cable connects your cd player to your amplifier and then speakers? These people seem to think so.
 
#453
engedi1 said:
For playback purposes, does it really make that much of a difference what kind of cable connects your cd player to your amplifier and then speakers? These people seem to think so.
Click to expand...
Actually, what my research has indicated so far is that for speaker cables specifically, from a high-wattage amp, there may be other cable qualities besides capacitance that come into play. In that context, cable inductance and impedance may be relevant. Even the extremely-skeptical-of-cable-snake-oil website Audioholics.com has posted a peer-reviewed article suggesting this to be the case.

For the interconnects between other components, like from CD player to receiver amp, it's all BS. There is no way in he11 any of their claims are true.
 
#454
bongomania said:
Actually, what my research has indicated so far is that for speaker cables specifically, from a high-wattage amp, there may be other cable qualities besides capacitance that come into play. In that context, cable inductance and impedance may be relevant. Even the extremely-skeptical-of-cable-snake-oil website Audioholics.com has posted a peer-reviewed article suggesting this to be the case.

For the interconnects between other components, like from CD player to receiver amp, it's all BS. There is no way in he11 any of their claims are true.
Click to expand...

The amp-to-loudspeaker loop is a relatively low-impedance circuit, so it would take an enormous amount of shunt capacitance (between one cable conductor and the other) to have anything but a negligible effect. Series resistance is more critical than in high-impedance interconnections, and that's why speaker cables are made with large-gauge conductors. It would take a significant amount of series inductance, too, to affect the audio performance, but that also can be minimized by reducing the loop area--i.e., twisting the pair of wire conductors together so they nearly occupy the same space.

This is why zip cord makes fine speaker cable for most uses.
 
#455
bongomania said:
Actually, what my research has indicated so far is that for speaker cables specifically, from a high-wattage amp, there may be other cable qualities besides capacitance that come into play. In that context, cable inductance and impedance may be relevant. Even the extremely-skeptical-of-cable-snake-oil website Audioholics.com has posted a peer-reviewed article suggesting this to be the case.

For the interconnects between other components, like from CD player to receiver amp, it's all BS. There is no way in he11 any of their claims are true.
Click to expand...

Well, I have my grandpa's cables up on Ebay, they are 8 foot xlr cables that went from his Studer playback machine to the power amp, and they are currently at $200 and the auction is not even 1 day old! My wife and I are watching with pure amazement what true audiogeeks will pay for cabling, I can't wait to see where this auction ends up! So it just goes to show you. I have never done the A/Bing myself but I just can't believe there is that much difference between a $2000 interconnect cable, and a $50 one. I guess I'll never find out.
 

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