Competing with guitarist

[two fingers]

You don't fight fire with fire. You fight fire with water. When he gets too loud, stop playing. Don't argue. Just stop playing and look at him like this>>> . He'll get the point after a while. He won't like it. But he'll get it.

 

[Marley's Ghost]

Volume wars can only end badly. Tell him to turn down or you are outa there.

 

[TimmyP]

While competing generally proves to do no less than ruin speakers and eardrums, there is no sense in not giving everybody their own fare space in the mix.

True. However this should not mean having to mix the the band at a volume level that is beyond what is safe and enjoyable so that a proper balance can be attained, just because Joe is TFL.

 

[Fretless1!]

That sucks!

Your guitarist plays in a more audible sound range and could probably blow everyone away with a 50 watt amp and a single 12" speaker - I doubt that this is any revelation. No need to compete. If you do, there's an pretty good chance that your show will go to crap.

Amen and pass the chicken.

For many years, I have held the firm belief that no guitar player at the club level needs more than 35 watts. That way, they can overdrive a small amp and get their precious "tone".

And, don't let them fool you. It's really not tone they're after. It's volume.

 

[TimmyP]

Amen and pass the chicken.

For many years, I have held the firm belief that no guitar player at the club level needs more than 35 watts. That way, they can overdrive a small amp and get their precious "tone".

And, don't let them fool you. It's really not tone they're after. It's volume.

When over-driven hard, even 35W can be a lot. I had to ask a guy to turn down a Blues Jr., and he wasn't pushing it much (in a 250 seat room with good acoustics). I recently modded a BF Princeton Reverb (don't freak - it needed a new OT and speaker anyway, and everything I did is reversible). That thing screams. Even the BF owner's modded Tweed cranks pretty good into a decent speaker.

 

[Fretless1!]

When over-driven hard, even 35W can be a lot.

Oh, absolutely true.

I hate volume wars. Nobody wins.

 

[Chowowbus]

=1 to two fingers.
I have had to do this before.
I turn it way down with my voume pedal, or I stop playing.
It works.

 

[WalterBush]

You don't fight fire with fire. You fight fire with water. When he gets too loud, stop playing. Don't argue. Just stop playing and look at him like this>>> . He'll get the point after a while. He won't like it. But he'll get it.

+1. Although the results in one case led to me leaving the band. Just refuse to play volume wars. You'll be happier.

And yeah, especially with Peavey amps, it's about hearing the guitar loudest, not about tone. Most of a Peavey's tone is in the preamp sections. Cranking them to drive the power amps is fun, but not necessary for good tone, and I saved that for the recording studio while I was gigging on guitar. If he was using a '59 Bassman he'd have a point, but Peaveys are built to work well at all volumes, and their speakers won't 'break up' like '60s era Jensens do.

Nor does power amp distortion occur at loud levels, it occurs at MAXIMUM volume. That's why 15 watt amps are still popular amongst guitarists. Also, with a half stack he's just punishing the audience and vibrating his butt if he's not lifting it off the floor. I used a full stack, and my volume took a sharp dive down since I was then deafening myself in addition to the audience. It's amazing what guitarists talk themselves into without ever walking out front to see what it sounds like to an audience member.

 

[TheNightLife]

^^^
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^^^ +1000000000

 

[S.B.]

The problem seems to lie with the guitarist playing too loud. IME if your trying to keep up your are just amplifying the problem. That being said having more powerful rig, not to keep up but for more sound may be a good idea.

 

[ga_edwards]

There may be another issue here too on the subject of competing to be heard. It may not be the fact the guitarist's too loud, he may simply be swamping the frequency spectrum with too much low end. Trimming the low end off on his amp may help, then you can both be heard.

If he states that it's 'not his tone' anymore, kick him in the nuts, and tell him "tough, this is a band, not a solo show".

 

[konodl18]

+ a zillion, two fingers.

I have been playing in my current, regular gigging band 3-4 years now and will not tolerate stupid volumes from any instrument or PA. I play twice a week every week and have no patience for ******** loud musicians or sound Guys. I have met too many local musicians that are half deaf already in their 30's its disgusting. I do not want to go deaf and I will not let some moron ruin my ears or my longevity as a musician.

Stop playing and tell him to turn down.

Save your ears!!!

 

[Marley's Ghost]

Before rehearsal tonight, I had a chat with the guitarists. I asked if they would mind cutting their lows. They looked at me puzzled, and then proceeded to dial down their bass. OMG, what a difference. Everything sounded clearer and tighter. Even they agreed how much better the mix was. Apparently they really weren't aware of how their eq was muddying up things.

 

[Ten Four One]

Heading off to band practice now. I'm going to start with the EQ suggestion. I discussed it with my singer last night and we both thought it made perfect sense. Hopefully that'll solve the problem.

A few "I can't effing hear myself"s from the singer help.

In my band it's even worse - the singer IS the guitar player and is still too loud. At least she's open to logic "you can't hear yourself because you play too loud."

 

[Ten Four One]

One thing that took me a while to get used to was solo tone vs group tone. If I'm playing by myself then the lows are up, the mids are down, and the highs are somewhere in the middle. But when it comes to a group situation, I pull the lows way back and use the mids to carry me. Up close it doesn't sound quite like I like it, but when I get to where all the parts blend together, I notice I can hear myself a lot better, and the tone is pretty nice. (That and I run 2 2x15 cabs now at practice.)

And by the same token, singer/songwriters and guitarists that aren't used to playing with a band will often compensate by adding bass & playing very rhythmically. When they get to the band, there's little else for anyone else to add. I've told numerous singer/songwriters who are starting out to strip their songs down a lot to let the band contribute to the overall sound & not just follow the highly bassy & rhythmic lines he wrote in his bedroom.

 

[Peppacone]

Just tell the dude to turn down.

 

[walterw]

tons of excellent advice about volume wars and frequency wars, but if the OP actually does want to hang volume-wise without buying a bunch of new gear, the simplest answer is another 4x10 cab or a 1x15 cab underneath the current bass rig.

that 300 watt head will drive it just fine; it will create more headroom from the amp running at a lower impedance and thus putting out more wattage, the cabs will not be pushed as hard individually, the increased overall speaker area will mean more efficiency (again more headroom), and stacking them puts the upper cab at ear level, so the OP will hear the bass better.

that said, full bass stacks in clubs are just as silly as 4x12 guitar cabs.

 

[ga_edwards]

that said, full bass stacks in clubs are just as silly as 4x12 guitar cabs.

+1. I personally cannot see the benefit of carting around a 100w 4x12 stack if you only play relatively small clubs and pubs. You need to crank them to get the best tone in which case they're far to loud. Or use a powerbrake, in which case, you may as well use a smaller amp.

Complete overkill

Incidentally, my brother stood in for one of our guitarists at a pub gig recently (venue holds 250 people). He used his 5w blackstar combo and was heard just fine. Actually, he cut through better then in the rehearsal room. I find generally we turn amps up more in rehearsals as the small room makes the drums huge.

 

[BigMac5]

that said, full bass stacks in clubs are just as silly as 4x12 guitar cabs.

Isn't a 4x12 only 3db louder than a 2x12?

 

[JimmyM]

While volume is often used as a reason for using a big cab, it's not the only reason. I like to use them because they plain just sound better, and I play at volumes that most people on here would call "piddly."