Completing setup- cords etc

[agedhorse]

For bass guitar and 20’ cables, any reasonable quality cable will have reasonable capacitance. It’s more of a guitar thing, but even that often gets made into more than it really is (sometimes for marketing purposes).

 

[Killing Floor]

So I looked up capacitance, and I gather it's an excess of signal which may adversely affect tone?

So I usually have a good sense for these things, and Mogami and Rattlesnake brands both look high quality. Are these too extravagant? Are there any other competitors to consider?

With instrument cables or pedal patch cables the length can be an issue, every wire imparts some signal loss no matter the quality. So as long as you use decent cables that are soldered reasonably well you’ll be fine. Speaker cable is where you want to make sure to use genuine Neutrik ends. It just is not worth the risk as these are conducting a lot more energy than a guitar cable. The wrong speaker cable/connector can cause damage whereas a freebie cable that comes with a cheap guitar may not sound sufficient for a studio but it won’t really risk your gear in the same way.
Make sure you use a decent speaker line.

Back to what @agedhorse said, with guitars the longer cables or smaller AWG can cost some high end but I find it less noticeable with bass. I use 15’ most of the time unless I have a lot of room.

 

[UrthCrimson]

Rattlesnake cable. Then you’ll never have to worry about it failing at a gig or rehearsal. Use Neutrik ends. For your cab also don’t cheap out. If you have nice gear you can justify quality cable.

Thank you for the suggestion. They seem high quality, plus color options hah

Yeah, my gear is pretty decent, so I get what you're saying!

 

[Gizmot]

Understood from the sound man’s pov. If I was a Soundman, I’d rather not see every dude rolling in with various sketchy wireless units.

But I take care of my own stuff. If my wireless were to crap out I wouldn’t make that someone else’s problem.
It’s been really solid for me. I can overdrive the pre on my amp when I dig in. The dynamics are there.
And I can walk out front to check the sound!

if wireless works for you and delivers the sound that pleases you then keep using it. Some day, it might night do that because of the locale you’re in or other environmental factor that you can’t control.

 

[UrthCrimson]

I have 3', 5' and 20' speaker cables. The 3' and 5' are for single or double cabs set directly under my amp. The 20' is for setting a cab on opposite side of drummer or opposite corner of a room. I run a 20' instrument cable from bass to pedal board, and a 20' cable from board to amp.

Didn't buy the cheapest, didn't buy the most expensive. No issues with sound quality even when 60' of "rope" separates instrument from the final cab in the chain.

Thank you for this. So do you keep your amp on a rack above your cabinets?

 

[UrthCrimson]

With instrument cables or pedal patch cables the length can be an issue, every wire imparts some signal loss no matter the quality. So as long as you use decent cables that are soldered reasonably well you’ll be fine. Speaker cable is where you want to make sure to use genuine Neutrik ends. It just is not worth the risk as these are conducting a lot more energy than a guitar cable. The wrong speaker cable/connector can cause damage whereas a freebie cable that comes with a cheap guitar may not sound sufficient for a studio but it won’t really risk your gear in the same way.
Make sure you use a decent speaker line.

Back to what @agedhorse said, with guitars the longer cables or smaller AWG can cost some high end but I find it less noticeable with bass. I use 15’ most of the time unless I have a lot of room.

Well the thing is, I have purchased a somewhat pricey Bass, the ESP LTD F-1005. I am not a beginner on bass, it has just been a long time, and I've kept up with music.

So that said, would you point me in the right direction as to how to be certain I have the correct cables? I mean I know about the speaker cables vs. instrument cables. So speaker cable goes from amp to cabinet, and amp to pedal? And then instrument cable from amp to instrument?

And this is a long thread, haha, so please refresh my memory as to the concerns with the size/thickness (gauge or other term?) of the cables?

So just for final clarification, what are all the specifications I need to know about the cable to be certain it is the correct one?

Thanks again!

 

[Engle]

27007717[/URL], member: 141905"]if wireless works for you and delivers the sound that pleases you then keep using it. Some day, it might night do that because of the locale you’re in or other environmental factor that you can’t control.

I will keep using it. And I always have cables ready just in case it doesn’t work.

 

[pepj]

Hey, thanks for the guidance. So by getting yours made up, you mean the cords are actually customized? Please elucidate!

No, just quality parts. Neutrik connectors and Klotz cable. My studio owning friend made these up years and years ago when Klotz had a lifetime guarantee on the cable. Now, you can probably get off the shelf comparables but I buy from the small guy who basically makes up what I want.

 

[Chris Y]

Well the thing is, I have purchased a somewhat pricey Bass, the ESP LTD F-1005. I am not a beginner on bass, it has just been a long time, and I've kept up with music.

So that said, would you point me in the right direction as to how to be certain I have the correct cables? I mean I know about the speaker cables vs. instrument cables. So speaker cable goes from amp to cabinet, and amp to pedal? And then instrument cable from amp to instrument?

And this is a long thread, haha, so please refresh my memory as to the concerns with the size/thickness (gauge or other term?) of the cables?

So just for final clarification, what are all the specifications I need to know about the cable to be certain it is the correct one?

Thanks again!

Speaker cable from amp to speaker.
Instrument cables from bass to pedal and pedal to amp !
I buy my cables from Sydney Sound Cables, I'm not affiliated in any way but check out the web site to give you an idea of what's available, I'm sure there are similar companies in your part of the world, just ask the question on here for some local assistance/recomendations.

 

[micguy]

So I looked up capacitance, and I gather it's an excess of signal which may adversely affect tone?

Not sure where you are getting your info, but that source is not good. Capacitance is something that arises in a circuit due to physical structures where conductors are close to one another - in those places (some intentional, some not), the circuit can store charge. Sometimes that's a useful thing, sometimes it's something you don't want. Another way of looking at it is it's a place in the circuit where energy is stored in the form of an electrostatic field.

If a capacitor is in the path of the circuit, it will block DC signals, and allow AC signals - exactly how much and at what frequencies depends on the amount of capacitance. If it's in a shunt path (a cable's capacitance does this), it will pass DC signals, and attenuate AC signals - again, the frequency and magnitude of that attenuation depends on the capacitance.

If Leo had designed his first bass guitars like pro audio gear is designed, basses would have lower output impedance, and they'd be relatively immune to cable loading - a dynamic mic, which at it's heart is a coil (just like a bass) can be run through hundreds of feet of cable without adverse effects. However, we still operate with the paradigm of Leo's earliest creations, so cable capacity is part of the sound - too much, the bass is dull, too little, the bass is shrill.

 

[micguy]

I don't think we really have a disagreement here.

If you're always operating with your tone control off, then your statement that cable capacitance acts like a change in the tone capacitor makes sense (it won't make much difference in that sense, as the cable capacitance is much smaller than that in the tone capacitor. If, however, you operate a bass with the tone full up, we disagree - in that mode, changing your tone capacitor won't affect the sound, but changing the cable capacitance definitely will. The value of the capacitor in your tone circuit doesn't place a ceiling on how bright your bass can get at "full tone". The amount of capacitance in your cable does place a ceiling on the brightness of your bass.

 

[Mike Caldwell]

If Leo had designed his first bass guitars like pro audio gear is designed, basses would have lower output impedance, and they'd be relatively immune to cable loading - a dynamic mic, which at it's heart is a coil (just like a bass) can be run through hundreds of feet of cable without adverse effects. However, we still operate with the paradigm of Leo's earliest creations, so cable capacity is part of the sound - too much, the bass is dull, too little, the bass is shrill.

And dynamic mics operate as a balanced line output connected to a balanced input cancelling out noise picked up between the mic output and equipment input.

As others have said use Neutrik connectors and good braided shield cable.
The Neutrik silencer ends work well if you do a lot swapping of instruments.
That said the ring next to the body of the connector needs to fully contact the jack on the guitar to push in, they use a magnetic reed switch for the muting.
https://www.neutrik.com/en/neutrik/products/plugs-jacks/plugs/professional-1-4-plugs/silentplug
If you want to add some bling to you rig.........
https://www.neutrik.com/en/neutrik/products/plugs-jacks/plugs/professional-1-4-plugs/crystalcon

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

If you're always operating with your tone control off, then your statement that cable capacitance acts like a change in the tone capacitor makes sense (it won't make much difference in that sense, as the cable capacitance is much smaller than that in the tone capacitor. If, however, you operate a bass with the tone full up, we disagree - in that mode, changing your tone capacitor won't affect the sound, but changing the cable capacitance definitely will. The value of the capacitor in your tone circuit doesn't place a ceiling on how bright your bass can get at "full tone". The amount of capacitance in your cable does place a ceiling on the brightness of your bass.

"I" still "don't think we really have a disagreement here."

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

Not sure where you are getting your info, but that source is not good. Capacitance is something that arises in a circuit due to physical structures where conductors are close to one another - in those places (some intentional, some not), the circuit can store charge. Sometimes that's a useful thing, sometimes it's something you don't want. Another way of looking at it is it's a place in the circuit where energy is stored in the form of an electrostatic field.

If a capacitor is in the path of the circuit, it will block DC signals, and allow AC signals - exactly how much and at what frequencies depends on the amount of capacitance. If it's in a shunt path (a cable's capacitance does this), it will pass DC signals, and attenuate AC signals - again, the frequency and magnitude of that attenuation depends on the capacitance.

If Leo had designed his first bass guitars like pro audio gear is designed, basses would have lower output impedance, and they'd be relatively immune to cable loading - a dynamic mic, which at it's heart is a coil (just like a bass) can be run through hundreds of feet of cable without adverse effects. However, we still operate with the paradigm of Leo's earliest creations, so cable capacity is part of the sound - too much, the bass is dull, too little, the bass is shrill.

Gotta wonder though, if Leo would have been able to influence the concept of low impedance balanced outputs for instruments? Was he more influenced by what may have already been established for what amps wanted to see? Or did the additional cost, to both instruments and amps drive those decisions? And at the time Leo was doing his thing, many other audio devices had not yet fully embraced the concept of low impedance, balanced systems.

I agree that from a technical standpoint it would have been the way to go. The question though is, would people adapt it to the point of being a viable, marketable product. The R&D department floor is littered with great ideas for technically superior products. Leo's genius, arguably, may have been more about what would become popular and sell, vs what would work best.

 

[Killing Floor]

Well the thing is, I have purchased a somewhat pricey Bass, the ESP LTD F-1005. I am not a beginner on bass, it has just been a long time, and I've kept up with music.

So that said, would you point me in the right direction as to how to be certain I have the correct cables? I mean I know about the speaker cables vs. instrument cables. So speaker cable goes from amp to cabinet, and amp to pedal? And then instrument cable from amp to instrument?

And this is a long thread, haha, so please refresh my memory as to the concerns with the size/thickness (gauge or other term?) of the cables?

So just for final clarification, what are all the specifications I need to know about the cable to be certain it is the correct one?

Thanks again!

Most important is make sure the speaker cable has genuine Neutrik connectors. Whichever brand you choose the gauge will be sufficient at that point. The store or website, wherever you get them, will clarify.

 

[agedhorse]

Gotta wonder though, if Leo would have been able to influence the concept of low impedance balanced outputs for instruments? Was he more influenced by what may have already been established for what amps wanted to see? Or did the additional cost, to both instruments and amps drive those decisions? And at the time Leo was doing his thing, many other audio devices had not yet fully embraced the concept of low impedance, balanced systems.

I agree that from a technical standpoint it would have been the way to go. The question though is, would people adapt it to the point of being a viable, marketable product. The R&D department floor is littered with great ideas for technically superior products. Leo's genius, arguably, may have been more about what would become popular and sell, vs what would work best.

In the good ‘ol days, balanced inputs required a transformer which was an expensive part. The other ways to accomplish it were more expensive. Leo was all about making amps and instruments inexpensive.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

In the good ‘ol days, balanced inputs required a transformer which was an expensive part. The other ways to accomplish it were more expensive. Leo was all about making amps and instruments inexpensive.

Yep!
Essentially that would be very much like installing a D.I. inside the bass.

Could go active electronics in the bass, but at the time tubes were still pretty much the thing.
And that means even more transformers!

Both of these concepts would have eliminated at least two discussions from our collective bass consciousness.
1) All basses would be active.
2) Neck dive wouldn't be a thing.

Of course weight might take over both as content for discussion. A 59 Fender P-Bass (with a body like a Cello to hold it all) might not be very desirable compared to a modern one weighing 15lbs less.

Popular Electronics: How to Convert the A.C. Power Cord On Your P-Bass From a 2 Conductor Cord to 3 Conductors. April 1961 Page 16.
Does that go in the Basses forum, or Hardware Setup and Repair forum?

If there was something Leo didn't get right, at least he didn't get these things wrong.

 

[micguy]

"I" still "don't think we really have a disagreement here."

OK. I'll explain where we differ with a picture. Below is a response curve (Spice simulation) of the electrical circuit of one of my basses - I build my own basses, and have circuit simulations for everything, including the pickups, which I've characterized for their impedance. There are 3 curves in this plot - the green curve is the circuit in the bass - a pickup, volume control, tone circuit (at max), capacitive loading from the cable and resistive loading from an amplifier the thing is loaded into. The red curve is what you get if you add 1000 pF to the tone circuit. If you can't see the green curve, it's because the red and green curves are literally on top of each other - adding 1000pF to the tone circuit makes essentially zero difference in the sound with the tone control at max.

Now, if you're right, adding 1000 pF to the cable will do the same thing as adding it to the tone circuit. If I'm right, the curves will be different. The blue curve is what you get when you add 1000pF to the cable. It's different.

 

[micguy]

In the good ‘ol days, balanced inputs required a transformer which was an expensive part. The other ways to accomplish it were more expensive. Leo was all about making amps and instruments inexpensive.

We agree, but it wouldn't have been a lot more expensive. The bass or guitar would have actually been cheaper - winding pickups with hundreds of turns of bigger (more robust) wire vs thousands of turns of fine, fragile wire would have been 10 times faster. The transformer to get things to where a 12ax7 could take over wouldn't have been nearly as expensive as pro audio ones - the bandwidth required of a bass or guitar is far less than what you need for a good microphone, and if the core had some non-linearities, it wouldn't have been a big deal - the string to pole piece interface has a lot of inherent non- linearities, a little more isn't an issue.....you could have used cheaper core materials and such.

Anyway, it's all an academic discussion at this point. Just like the railroads are stuck with a gauge from the time when horses pulled wagons, we're stuck with a standard that doesn't really optimize what we could do today.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

OK. I'll explain where we differ with a picture. Below is a response curve (Spice simulation) of the electrical circuit of one of my basses - I build my own basses, and have circuit simulations for everything, including the pickups, which I've characterized for their impedance. There are 3 curves in this plot - the green curve is the circuit in the bass - a pickup, volume control, tone circuit (at max), capacitive loading from the cable and resistive loading from an amplifier the thing is loaded into. The red curve is what you get if you add 1000 pF to the tone circuit. If you can't see the green curve, it's because the red and green curves are literally on top of each other - adding 1000pF to the tone circuit makes essentially zero difference in the sound with the tone control at max.

Now, if you're right, adding 1000 pF to the cable will do the same thing as adding it to the tone circuit. If I'm right, the curves will be different. The blue curve is what you get when you add 1000pF to the cable. It's different.

View attachment 4885463

"I" still, STILL "don't think we really have a disagreement here."

But if you think we still do, then OK. You win!