Composing music

[mutedeity]

I guess every drummer I've ever wrote music for isn't as good at playing drums as you are.

If you say so. I know what is right for what I write. What I know for a fact is that every drummer you have ever played with doesn't know better than me about that. Forget the fact that you don't even understand what I am saying as usual.

 

[Pacman]

I don't know if Terry Bozzio, Bill Bruford, Peter Erskine had the same experience as you, but you are probably right, it never happens, we should all just play by feel and let the drummers do the same.

Did I say never? Reading is fundamental - I said rarely.


And I guarantee that the players you name see a kick sheet OVERWHELMINGLY more often than some tool writing out their parts.

 

[HaVIC5]

I don't know if Terry Bozzio, Bill Bruford, Peter Erskine had the same experience as you, but you are probably right, it never happens, we should all just play by feel and let the drummers do the same.

It's not "playing by feel" by any means. There's just no need to write "ding-ding-a-ling" for a drummer and all the variations that might be contained therein because you as a composer could and would never be able to tell them how to create a convincing part as well as they would. If they played the part literally, the music would sound extremely sterile. You think Duke Ellington wrote out the drum chart note-for-note for Louie Bellson?

 

[mutedeity]

You say we're in a justified dreamworld based upon "realworld" scenarios and "experience", whereas you, of course, are far more well-grounded with research. Interesting.

Really, Havic, do we need to consult the "great composers" again?

 

[mutedeity]

Did I say never? Reading is fundamental - I said rarely.


And I guarantee that the players you name see a kick sheet OVERWHELMINGLY more often than some tool writing out their parts.

Some tool writing out their charts? Are you telling me that the drummer knows better than the composer because he plays drums? I guess that goes for every musician in an orchestra, or band.

I have it now, the way to write music is this.

DRUMS -- just play what you think works here

GUITAR-- you know what's best

BASS -- just feel it, dude

VOX -- sing something nice...

 

[mutedeity]

It's not "playing by feel" by any means. There's just no need to write "ding-ding-a-ling" for a drummer and all the variations that might be contained therein because you as a composer could and would never be able to tell them how to create a convincing part as well as they would. If they played the part literally, the music would sound extremely sterile. You think Duke Ellington wrote out the drum chart note-for-note for Louie Bellson?

Maybe not, but Frank Zappa wrote the black page out note for note.

By the way those are your limitations, certainly not mine. Maybe you need to do more research into playing and writing drums if that is a problem for you.

 

[Pacman]

Some tool writing out their charts? Are you telling me that the drummer knows better than the composer because he plays drums? I guess that goes for every musician in an orchestra, or band.

I have it now, the way to write music is this.

DRUMS -- just play what you think works here

GUITAR-- you know what's best

BASS -- just feel it, dude

VOX -- sing something nice...

I guess you just like to argue, so I won't keep you from it. But, AGAIN, I'll tell the original poster that it's normally not done in the real world situations.


I find it so ironic that the word "mute" is in your username....

 

[Pacman]

Maybe not, but Frank Zappa wrote the black page out note for note.

By the way those are your limitations, certainly not mine. Maybe you need to do more research into playing and writing drums if that is a problem for you.

Once again, you chose to counter generalizations with a singular example. Then you argue specifics with generalities. Interesting trick, but it's not working.

 

[jezzamac]

I've had keyboard players direct me to play what they've written for bass: usually what they would play on their left hand. It would suit the tunes but often it would be too fancy or yet another descending bass line (nice for spice but...). No doubt the same could be said for drums. It all depends on your relationship with the other musicians you play with and how good (or average etc) we are. Also, with orchestral music the conductor may have something of a role in how the notation is played, otherwise there would only be one version of any piece recorded (may not always be a bad thing). Sorry to be vague but I guess the answer really is "... it all depends"

 

[mutedeity]

I guess you just like to argue, so I won't keep you from it. But, AGAIN, I'll tell the original poster that it's normally not done in the real world situations.


I find it so ironic that the word "mute" is in your username....

Well, I guess we learn new things every day. By the way I type with my fingers not my mouth, a fact I have pointed out more than once when people have resorted to that witty repartee.

Blah blah blah, it's not normally done in the real world. Are you implying that what I do isn't the real world? There are no tricks to my arguments, Pacman, I can't believe you haven't figured that out by now. Using Frank Zappa as a specific example isn't me trying to defeat a general argument with a specific example at all. It is me pointing out that not everyone agrees with or follows the general argument. You might have missed where I also said something along the lines that what I do might make me the exception, rather than the rule.

Why wouldn't I argue the point anyway? Can anyone really tell me a good reason why you wouldn't learn about scoring drums for your music other than "everyone else does it differently and mutedeity just like to argue". Yes there is a time when you might want to consult the drummer, there are times where you might want to let them improvise, but what happens when you want something done a specific way? If that's the case how can you possibly justify saying "well in the real world, it's done differently"?

The bottom line here is that we have a bunch of people giving someone a series of excuses not to learn something that might benefit them, and perhaps only one person encouraging them to expand their knowledge.

What is your big problem with telling someone that the way to get around not knowing how to do something is learning how to do it anyway? Why all the excuses?

 

[Kwesi]

...i dunno if i should be proud or confused about this being my first thread ever to have been semi-derailed.

 

[Pacman]

Blah blah blah, it's not normally done in the real world. Are you implying that what I do isn't the real world?

No, but am saying (not implying) that the what you're doing isn't the norm in the real world.

There are no tricks to my arguments, Pacman, I can't believe you haven't figured that out by now. Using Frank Zappa as a specific example isn't me trying to defeat a general argument with a specific example at all. It is me pointing out that not everyone agrees with or follows the general argument.

To really make that point, however, you'd have to be able to say something like "Frank Zappa wrote all of the drum parts to his compositions." or "the majority of tunes Zappa wrote had a drum part written." If you know the history of Black Page, you'd know that the whole point of it was an insane written drum part. They had been talking about the fear of walking into a session and being confronted with a black page, so Zappa went home and wrote it. It is the exception that proves the rule, in fact.

Why wouldn't I argue the point anyway? Can anyone really tell me a good reason why you wouldn't learn about scoring drums for your music other than "everyone else does it differently and mutedeity just like to argue". Yes there is a time when you might want to consult the drummer, there are times where you might want to let them improvise, but what happens when you want something done a specific way? If that's the case how can you possibly justify saying "well in the real world, it's done differently"?

Yes, in fact I can give you a reason. There's a really good chance of a non-drummer getting something they don't really want - or getting something inferior to what a drummer (who's studied drums for an extended period of time) will actually come up with. In the drum parts I have seen written out, I've never seen one done correctly (and I'm talking about top level arrangers and composers here).

The bottom line here is that we have a bunch of people giving someone a series of excuses not to learn something that might benefit them, and perhaps only one person encouraging them to expand their knowledge.

What is your big problem with telling someone that the way to get around not knowing how to do something is learning how to do it anyway? Why all the excuses?

There's no excuses here. Sometimes the best answer is not exactly what you expected. If I posted a thread and said "My car is out of gas. What is the best way to push it to the station to get more gas?" The obvious answer is no not push the car at all, which isn't a cop-out it's the best way to accomplish the overall goal. (In the OP's case, getting the music he wants performed).

 

[Pacman]

Post script to this - even in orchestral scores, if there's a drum set part, 90% of the time (at least), it's only a kick sheet.

 

[mutedeity]

No, but am saying (not implying) that the what you're doing isn't the norm in the real world.

So what?

To really make that point, however, you'd have to be able to say something like "Frank Zappa wrote all of the drum parts to his compositions." or "the majority of tunes Zappa wrote had a drum part written." If you know the history of Black Page, you'd know that the whole point of it was an insane written drum part. They had been talking about the fear of walking into a session and being confronted with a black page, so Zappa went home and wrote it. It is the exception that proves the rule, in fact.

That doesn't make any difference at all. When Frank Zappa did give someone a drum chart, it's unlikely he would have tolerated any nonsense about how people in the real world did things differently, so they would just play it the way they felt was right.

Yes, in fact I can give you a reason. There's a really good chance of a non-drummer getting something they don't really want - or getting something inferior to what a drummer (who's studied drums for an extended period of time) will actually come up with. In the drum parts I have seen written out, I've never seen one done correctly (and I'm talking about top level arrangers and composers here).



There's no excuses here. Sometimes the best answer is not exactly what you expected. If I posted a thread and said "My car is out of gas. What is the best way to push it to the station to get more gas?" The obvious answer is no not push the car at all, which isn't a cop-out it's the best way to accomplish the overall goal. (In the OP's case, getting the music he wants performed).

Right, I get what you are saying now, avoid making mistakes when writing music, just get someone more qualified and you will live a happy life.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I would suggest anybody who doubts what is right/wrong here; go along to a shop that sells sheet music and thumb through a few Real Books - things like that.

I can guarantee that out of 1,000 tunes you pick - you might find one or two instructions for drums written out and I will award you a prize if you find a complete note-for-note drum part - I've never seen one in over 10 years of looking though such shops in London!!

 

[svenbass]

...i dunno if i should be proud or confused about this being my first thread ever to have been semi-derailed.

Well, it's pretty obvious what the real world situation is regarding written drum parts. The above 'discussion' is a joke though it is quite entertaining and gives insight to what happens if you never, ever, leave your mom's basement.

Regarding your question to drum notation. You can easily find out how to write on the staff. If you can read / write standard notation, writing the drum parts should be fairly straightforward after learning where the different instruments lie on the staff.

I would suggest transcribing some parts and have a drummer look them over. Try giving the same transcription to a few drummers and listen to the differences in how they play the same chart. After you are comfortable with the mechanics, try writing a few of your own lines and see what you think

 

[ryco]

... I know what i'd like it to sound like there are a few hang-ups. The biggest one is probably that I haven't the slighted clue as to what drum notation looks like.

To the OP; here ya go:

Link Removed

mute makes a good argument. If you want to write out a drum part, you can come up with the ability to do so.

If you hear particular events you want to hear happen and wish to communicate those events to a drummer/percussionist then you're going to have to write out exact parts. The hitch is you have to work with a musician that can read and execute the part(s).

True - a drum chart is not a common thing to see except in orchestra, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't learn and study the skill.

 

[51m0n]

When I was at college we had to compose pieces for other performance groups to play. To the note. The results were often hilarious to everyone, it became quite the standing challenge to interpret a piece as far away from the original intention without actually playing anything wrong from the notation - now that can be harder than it sounds.

Actually writing out drums is really easy if you have any idea what basic drumming does to achieve the rhythms we all hear most of the time. If you currently read and write standard notation it wont take long. If you want to figure out how to write out drum parts then take the first pdf here (it seems perfectly good enough) and transpose a couple of your favourite songs, then ask a drummer to play them. The difference can be staggering though!

Mute has a point. I found this skill really quite useful. Though mainly in undertanding more about drumming and drummers than anything else since I went to college.

Everyone else here is speaking the truth also.

Its one of the reasons why almost any decent drummer can play virtually any song, the best guys I know have a library in their head of literally hundreds of songs, they just know the feel/core beat, the structure and the stabs. Everything else is just expression on the kit. That is NOT detracting from their skill in any way though - far from it!

 

[mutedeity]

I would suggest anybody who doubts what is right/wrong here; go along to a shop that sells sheet music and thumb through a few Real Books - things like that.

I can guarantee that out of 1,000 tunes you pick - you might find one or two instructions for drums written out and I will award you a prize if you find a complete note-for-note drum part - I've never seen one in over 10 years of looking though such shops in London!!

Well, Bruce, the person who is wrong is the one trying to prove that they are right by making arbitrary assertions about what you find when having a day out on the town.

As if my way is wrong, I write out drum parts note for note all the time and give it to a drummer to play. There are plenty of stage shows where drummers have to read a score note for note too.

Just admit it, you are trying to sell the easy way out because if you had to face the fact that some people put more effort in you might have to admit you are lazy too.

 

[mutedeity]

To the last three post above mine, thankyou. It's nice to see someone gets it. As 5im0n has said, there is nothing wrong with deferring to a drummer if that's what you want to do. A lot of people do it. I do it myself in a lot of situations, or I write out a loose cheat sheet. The fact is though, that saying anyone is emphatically wrong to score for a drummer because we should assume "drummer knows best" is ridiculous.

If someone wants to write a chart out note for note and give it to a drummer, they are hardly wrong to do so.