Composing music

[Bruce Lindfield]

Just admit it, you are trying to sell the easy way out because if you had to face the fact that some people put more effort in you might have to admit you are lazy too.

Well I'm not sure why I'm bothering as it is clear you are missing the point big time - but it is not about what I do or what one person does - it is about the fact that in the vast majority of working situations, there will be no written drum parts and the vast majority of drummers will not expect to see them.

It's about the real world - not your personal thoughts ...

 

[mutedeity]

Well I'm not sure why I'm bothering as it is clear you are missing the point big time - but it is not about what I do or what one person does - it is about the fact that in the vast majority of working situations, there will be no written drum parts and the vast majority of drummers will not expect to see them.

It's about the real world - not your personal thoughts ...

No, Bruce, it's you who is missing the point. It's not about what the vast majority of people do. Why on earth are so many people here on talkbass convinced that what most people do is the only answer to how to go about so many things?

The point here is what can be done and how to go about doing it. The point is that the only solution you have to someone asking how to get around not being able to do something is avoid doing it unless you make a mistake.

This utter garbage about the so called "real world" can go take a flying leap too. In the real world, Bruce, people do all kinds of things. Some of them do what I do some of them do what you do. Some of them like to justify themselves by what they find out when they are browsing through books at the local music store, too.

I don't know how you are enabling anyone or giving them positive feedback by telling them to be lazy and just defer to someone else, though.

 

[Pacman]

This utter garbage about the so called "real world" can go take a flying leap too. In the real world, Bruce, people do all kinds of things. Some of them do what I do some of them do what you do. Some of them like to justify themselves by what they find out when they are browsing through books at the local music store, too.

This isn't about what you find looking at a music store, either, mute. It's about what I and many other have seen in a long and varied professional career. In my case, I've been gigging for 25 years, making my living at it for nearly 22. I've done gigs with every conceivable type of performing ensemble - from orchestras and concert bands to trios, to big bands and everything in between. I've played jingle sessions, broadway shows, shows with jazz legends, and gigs with working bands through the US and around the world. My experience, while definitely not comprehensive, is a cross section of professional music as a career.

Sure, you CAN write drum music note for note - but why would you? Except in extreme cases (of which you seemed to have found one of the only ones), there's no reason. The OP's real intent was to get his music played. Most of the posters here have given him solid advice. You seem intent to convince everyone your way is right, while the rest of us are wrong.

I don't know how you are enabling anyone or giving them positive feedback by telling them to be lazy and just defer to someone else, though.

It's not about being lazy. It's working smarter, not harder.

 

[onlyclave]

Well Mute, it's a good thing you'll never have to play one of my charts where I write "ECM Feel" in the upper left corner, slash-slash-slash-slash, (this is the rhythm the sax section is playing, Kick here) DS as Coda, Fine.

If I have to write out a note for note chart for a drummer I don't want to have to deal with him. Not enough experience.

But don't feel bad dude, there is always room for "Drum-Secrets-By-Mutedeity.com" where you can teach comprehensive chart writing and reading and reveal your new drum kit formula.

 

[Kwesi]

So far I think i would agree with Pacman. In my schools jazz band the drummer is normally given a lead sheet or kick chart (at least i think it's one... it's not note-for-note i know that much) and there instructed to use it as a guide as to what they should play. But, in relation to the topic i think i have a better idea of what to put to paper which is great.

P.S. Pacman, i dig your rendition of all blues on you myspace page. The way you put a funk groove to it reminds me of the version our band did last year.

 

[mutedeity]

You seem intent to convince everyone your way is right, while the rest of us are wrong.



It's not about being lazy. It's working smarter, not harder.

Actually it's quite the opposite. I don't think you ever read what I say in its entirety. You seem take that my approach is different as a sign that I disagree with everyone else. Actually if you pay attention to what I have said in this thread I never said that it's wrong to consult the drummer or to give the drummer a lead sheet.

On the other hand there was a lot of "don't bother doing that your drummer will know better than you" when I suggested that the OP should study how to write score for drums as a way of getting around not know how to do it.

I'm not going to comment on your professional career or the experience that you have as a result, only to say that your experience doesn't make your opinion on this any more valid when there are people out there that certainly do write score for drums. It's really pointless arguing your professional experience against that fact and it's wrong to assume that what you have done in your professional experience equates to what someone should do in the case given.

Working smarter is having all the options available to you to make an informed choice, not opting for the easy way out because you are ignorant of what to do and reassuring yourself that everyone else does the same thing.

To the OP, it's all good if you want to defer to a drummer or give them a lead sheet, but if you are like me and others and have specific ideas you want a drummer to play, don't assume that drummer knows best. It does help that I am fairly proficient in drumming and have a good knowledge of rudimental cadence when it comes to me writing a piece where I have specific requirements of the drummer.

It comes down to this though. You have more tools to work with when you can write a score for drums and choose to defer to the drummer, than if you are forced to let the drummer write their own parts and you are unable to communicate what you want when you do have a specific idea for something.

 

[mutedeity]

Well Mute, it's a good thing you'll never have to play one of my charts where I write "ECM Feel" in the upper left corner, slash-slash-slash-slash, (this is the rhythm the sax section is playing, Kick here) DS as Coda, Fine.

If I have to write out a note for note chart for a drummer I don't want to have to deal with him. Not enough experience.

But don't feel bad dude, there is always room for "Drum-Secrets-By-Mutedeity.com" where you can teach comprehensive chart writing and reading and reveal your new drum kit formula.

It's probably more that you are too busy sipping velvet lates to be bothered writing out a chart. I mean come on how hard can it be to know what to do when playing drums for Danger Danger, anyway?

 

[onlyclave]

It's probably more that you are too busy sipping velvet lates to be bothered writing out a chart. I mean come on how hard can it be to know what to do when playing drums for Danger Danger, anyway?

Yup. Arrangers hire copyists to write out charts. I print out a score from Finale, hand it over to the copyist who then charges me by the page and writes out everybody's parts. And that gives me time to sip a velvet latte.

Why are you so stuck on Danger Danger? Are you so bitter because even THEY have more professional relevance than you? Man, I'd hate to be jealous of a hair band. Sorry bro.

 

[mutedeity]

Yup. Arrangers hire copyists to write out charts. I print out a score from Finale, hand it over to the copyist who then charges me by the page and writes out everybody's parts. And that gives me time to sip a velvet latte.

Why are you so stuck on Danger Danger? Are you so bitter because even THEY have more professional relevance than you? Man, I'd hate to be jealous of a hair band. Sorry bro.

Not that I care, It's pretty unlikely you would have a clue, but have you even heard anything I have written? I just thought that since you are so convinced everything I write is on par with INXS, that you, being from L.A and living in Seattle must also be the result of velvet lattes and listening to Danger Danger. It's a fair assumption, isn't it? What's this "professional relevance" crap anyway? You mean they have spent more time paying back recuperation on their advance and hanging out with A&R reps than me? Good for them.

Seriously, you have to be about as childish as it gets trying to undermine everything I say with this arbitrary drivel you seem so fluent in.

 

[getfunky]

Isn't it a fair assumption that the OP had already thought of the "leave it to the drummer" idea? It's pretty obvious, just like "how do I push my car?" Both sides of the argument are valid, but it's just silly to say that one way or another is better. Music, as a creative entity, is always going to be concieved/composed/performed in a way that reflects the ideas of those writing/composing/performing the music.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Seriously, you have to be about as childish as it gets trying to undermine everything I say with this arbitrary drivel you seem so fluent in.

I think you are doing a pretty good job of this, all on your own...

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

This isn't about what you find looking at a music store, either, mute. It's about what I and many other have seen in a long and varied professional career. In my case, I've been gigging for 25 years, making my living at it for nearly 22. I've done gigs with every conceivable type of performing ensemble - from orchestras and concert bands to trios, to big bands and everything in between. I've played jingle sessions, broadway shows, shows with jazz legends, and gigs with working bands through the US and around the world. My experience, while definitely not comprehensive, is a cross section of professional music as a career.

Sure, you CAN write drum music note for note - but why would you? Except in extreme cases (of which you seemed to have found one of the only ones), there's no reason. The OP's real intent was to get his music played. Most of the posters here have given him solid advice. You seem intent to convince everyone your way is right, while the rest of us are wrong.



It's not about being lazy. It's working smarter, not harder.

I agree 100% and the only reason I mentioned the music store idea, is that it is something anybody can do for themselves, regardless of their experience.

I have been playing music with other people for over 30 years now and as I mentioned before - must have been given thousand of lead sheets for tunes.

I also attend Jazz education classes with large numbers of pro musicians who have worked with the best in Europe and the world - on TV, in Movies, writing scores etc.

I have often asked them about this kind of thing and got the benefit of their experience as well.

 

[grovest]

Kwesi-

I had the same basic question recently. You see, I bought this drum machine and thought it would be "easy" to rat-a-tat with my fingers and create interesting jazz drum riffs. Well, I was wrong! So in pursuit of this never-ending thing called "music" I went on to Amazon and found there are a couple drum pedagogy suggestion lists. I bought 'Beyond Bop Drumming' by John Riley and have had a lot of fun programming the examples in to the drum machine. And, right there on page three is a little key of the notation used. (and it was less than $20)

Also, with regards to the scan of "Gregory Is Here" in this thread. Maybe I am being "simple" but it seems to me there is a myriad of drum clues on that chart (lead sheet). First, as admitted, the feel is marked, but there are rests, triplets, accents, a coda, heck no doubt a whole note can mean something to a drummer in a particular context. (or was this meant to show there is nothing that is DRUM SPECIFIC on that chart? Of course by extension there is nothing bass specific or horn specific, either(??))

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

It's not about what the vast majority of people do. Why on earth are so many people here on talkbass convinced that what most people do is the only answer to how to go about so many things?

Well that's why I said you had missed the point - so most people on TB are not just self-obsessed like you.

They are trying to put themselves in another person's position (it's called empathy) and try to think about all they know through their experience of this kind of thing and how it might apply to real world sitiuations that the OP is likely to encounter.

They are not thinking - "I do it like this, so I must tell the OP over and over again that this is the way to do it - regardless of how others do it!"

No - most people on TB are generally trying to help with their experience of the real world and not trying to bludgeon others with their own way of doing things!!

 

[HaVIC5]

Also, with regards to the scan of "Gregory Is Here" in this thread. Maybe I am being "simple" but it seems to me there is a myriad of drum clues on that chart (lead sheet). First, as admitted, the feel is marked, but there are rests, triplets, accents, a coda, heck no doubt a whole note can mean something to a drummer in a particular context. (or was this meant to show there is nothing that is DRUM SPECIFIC on that chart? Of course by extension there is nothing bass specific or horn specific, either(??))

All of this thread has been about writing for things which are drum specific, IE, when to play the hihat and the snare, writing out drums fills exactly, etc, etc. The people, myself included, who don't feel that is necessary the vast majority of time, don't advocate writing nothing for the drummer. A drum part without specific notation might still be very complex - horn hits, dynamics, meter changes, textual descriptions of things to do on the kit, rhythmic hits, etc, etc.

Part of the reason why this is the standard in the professional music world is because literal drum notation hasn't been standardized to the extent that regular notation has, and this can be a problem if you aren't careful. Not only do specific drums lack a universal physical position on the staff (this would be like a bassist trained in bass clef having to read in treble or, god forbid, tenor clef), but note shapes can be wildly different for various cymbals and effects, and beaming and creating "voices" among sets of drums can vary. Now, a pro drummer could likely decipher anything that's thrown at them, but percussion notation still lacks the clarity that regular notation does. Just a thought.

Working smarter is having all the options available to you to make an informed choice, not opting for the easy way out because you are ignorant of what to do and reassuring yourself that everyone else does the same thing.

I don't think anybody is disagreeing with the idea that options are good to have in any musical situation, its just that in this situation writing specific notation is, for the most part, a specific exception for a specific purpose. There's a reason why writing rhythm and kick sheets is the industry standard - it's definitely not dogmatic adherance.

 

[onlyclave]

I do free form beat boxing, how would you write a chart for that?

It would look like this:


Beat Box




TACET





||

 

[mutedeity]

Well that's why I said you had missed the point - so most people on TB are not just self-obsessed like you.

They are trying to put themselves in another person's position (it's called empathy) and try to think about all they know through their experience of this kind of thing and how it might apply to real world sitiuations that the OP is likely to encounter.

They are not thinking - "I do it like this, so I must tell the OP over and over again that this is the way to do it - regardless of how others do it!"

No - most people on TB are generally trying to help with their experience of the real world and not trying to bludgeon others with their own way of doing things!!

How ironic, and here you are telling us all how YOU never found anything on your little window shopping days out on the town, which justifies your point of view. I express what I do because it relates my empirical experience on the matter. I do write scores for drums. I do give them to drummers. I do get the drummer to play them how they are written for the most part.

The only thing you have to share is your shopping habits as though that makes you right. Then again you can fall back on your group support and knock heads with the crowd. Not self obsessed at all, are we?

I'm not the one making this a personal attack on anyone's credibility here, pal, but your credibility is wearing very thin right now.

 

[mutedeity]

I don't think anybody is disagreeing with the idea that options are good to have in any musical situation, its just that in this situation writing specific notation is, for the most part, a specific exception for a specific purpose. There's a reason why writing rhythm and kick sheets is the industry standard - it's definitely not dogmatic adherance.

You don't? So what is this nonsense all about then? People write drum score and they do it for a good reason, what is the point of the argument? Here we have a whole lot of people arguing with me, in a quite disrespectful way, mind you, about something that you can't really question.

Writing score for drums is an option worth having if you want to have as many choices as possible. What the "industry standard" is has utterly no relevance in regard to that matter. Why are you guys even continuing this redundant argument anyway?

 

[Pacman]

You don't? So what is this nonsense all about then? People write drum score and they do it for a good reason, what is the point of the argument? Here we have a whole lot of people arguing with me, in a quite disrespectful way, mind you, about something that you can't really question.

Actually, the only person I see getting disrespectful so far is you. You might want to step away from that edge.

Writing score for drums is an option worth having if you want to have as many choices as possible. What the "industry standard" is has utterly no relevance in regard to that matter. Why are you guys even continuing this redundant argument anyway?

Just as fairly, why are you?

 

[mutedeity]

Actually, the only person I see getting disrespectful so far is you. You might want to step away from that edge.




Just as fairly, why are you?

I don't know Pacman, I think you are imagining things if you think I have done anything other than respond appropriately to the tone of the thread. You might think that going with the flow is a sign of respect even if it means undermining what I say, which as we know on more than one occasion I have proven myself to have a valid point about when the rest of you are trying to imply I don't know what I am talking about.

On the contrary I am showing the utmost respect for the original poster and despite the obvious resistance am reasserting my point of view for the sake of not allowing it to be arbitrarily undermined. I think its the only thing anyone who takes themselves seriously would do.

As I said, and at this stage you yourself have not commented at all on the matter, I have not disagreed with what other people have said, which you claimed I did and on the contrary when I gave my opinion it was met with a lot of "don't bother doing that". So I don't get where you get that I am being disrespectful, unless you think the way I have addressed onlyclave or Bruce Lindfield is inappropriate. If that is the case you are selectively ignoring what is being said to me by them, especially onlyclave, who has a history or insulting and undermining my posts with red herrings about the quality of music in Australia and how it goes to what I know about anything.

I really don't like to or think it's appropriate to derail this thread like this, but if you are going to call me on anything I said here, there is the answer to your question.

I would think that really the appropriate thing to do at this stage is to close the thread and leave it at that and remove this and several other off topic posts.