Compression: Maybe I thought what I wanted is not what I wanted

[el murdoque]

Here is what happened:
After a long period of being happy without compression, a MXR M-87 Bass Compressor found its way back on my board. Not to even things out a little, but as a peak limiter.
I set it to fast attack, medium release, max ratio (20:1) and then set the input so that soft playing leaves it wide open. When I dig in more, it activates and I don't get more volume.
I bought that comp because it has a LED meter showing me what's going on and people generally liked it and I had to start somewhere. Now that I found a clear purpose for my comp and that purpose is peak limiting I asked around here and people were very much in favor of the Keeley Bassist as a better choice for this application. It was meant to be super clean and transparent and very well suited for keeping those peaks in check.
I found a good deal on one, which I bought and mounted on my board.

Now I have the following issue:
When the Keeley is doing its job, its fine. Sounds like my bass, only not as loud. Perfect. Well, it would be, but I can clearly hear the moment when it kicks in.
I did own a cheap Thomann IEM system for a while and that had a limiter. When that limiter kicked in, it felt the same. Is it dip and swell? I don't really know, but in the moment it happens there is an uneasiness on my ears that I don't like.

The MXR unit feels much more subtle - I use my comp very late in the chain, so the touch sensitive effects come before that. I have a Source Audio C4 where the Synth I use is set to have a super high output to distort the preamp.

The compressor has to catch that, or else the subs will shake me off the stage. I often play staccato with the synth, giving the comp a run for its money.

I now think that I don't have that much of an issue with transparency and can live with a comp that gives me a 'warmer, fatter' sound. I do need something that will chop off the peaks but so so in an organic, subtle fashion that will not be immediately noticed.
Am I making sense?

 

[frankzap]

Try limiting higher, as in raising the threshold, to catch less signal amplitude. Limiters have a faster attack time (+release) and a hard knee. The Bassist might be a bit slower and in the softer knee domain. Since the dry blend is not possible with it, the only other thing you can do is lower the ratio. Trim all these parameters slightly. Or, test another comp/limiter.

 

[el murdoque]

Well, limiting at a higher point is out of the question.

But am I doing things right? I thought the Bassist has the reputation of being one of the best limiters out there.

 

[frankzap]

There’s hardly anything wrong in a setting by itself. But any output is based on the input + system processing. What do the “best limiters” need to do to be the best? Throw anything at them and expect a very particular outcome? You mentioned the compressor is last in your chain and you push your preamp hard. I assume the compressor comes next, but how hard you push the compressor with the preamp’s output? You might be way beyond instrument level, so you may need to adjust the threshold higher and avoid compressing/limiting too much, something that causes the pumping, or “dipping & swelling”. One other thing: if your preamp is clipping already, it is acting like a limiter by itself and there might be little left to compress or limit after. That means you may kill your dynamics with the preamp in exchange for “tone”. Maybe you should move the Bassist location to be first in the chain. To judge its transparency, first use it alone with your instrument and compare its output with the by-passed signal. The Bassist is pretty good and probably better than the MXR in terms of transparency and noise.

 

[Fuzzbass]

Here is what happened:
After a long period of being happy without compression, a MXR M-87 Bass Compressor found its way back on my board. Not to even things out a little, but as a peak limiter.
I set it to fast attack, medium release, max ratio (20:1) and then set the input so that soft playing leaves it wide open. When I dig in more, it activates and I don't get more volume.
I bought that comp because it has a LED meter showing me what's going on and people generally liked it and I had to start somewhere. Now that I found a clear purpose for my comp and that purpose is peak limiting I asked around here and people were very much in favor of the Keeley Bassist as a better choice for this application. It was meant to be super clean and transparent and very well suited for keeping those peaks in check.
I found a good deal on one, which I bought and mounted on my board.

Now I have the following issue:
When the Keeley is doing its job, its fine. Sounds like my bass, only not as loud. Perfect. Well, it would be, but I can clearly hear the moment when it kicks in.
I did own a cheap Thomann IEM system for a while and that had a limiter. When that limiter kicked in, it felt the same. Is it dip and swell? I don't really know, but in the moment it happens there is an uneasiness on my ears that I don't like.

The MXR unit feels much more subtle - I use my comp very late in the chain, so the touch sensitive effects come before that. I have a Source Audio C4 where the Synth I use is set to have a super high output to distort the preamp.

The compressor has to catch that, or else the subs will shake me off the stage. I often play staccato with the synth, giving the comp a run for its money.

I now think that I don't have that much of an issue with transparency and can live with a comp that gives me a 'warmer, fatter' sound. I do need something that will chop off the peaks but so so in an organic, subtle fashion that will not be immediately noticed.
Am I making sense?

Frankzap had some advice that will (I hope) be useful to you, I'm just here to empathize. Compression in general has a steep learning curve. Some units are easier to use than others, but regardless, it's not uncommon to find yourself at a point where a comp isn't quite giving you what you want, and even those of us with experience might not immediately know how to resolve the issue. Fortunately I'm at the point where comp issues rarely happen, but it can be frustrating when they do.

 

[G.Bisson]

If the MXR was working well for you, than why change it? Keeley is a good comp, but the MXR fits your gear.

 

[micguy]

But am I doing things right? I thought the Bassist has the reputation of being one of the best limiters out there.

It does, however some folks are more sensitive to certain things that others. I had one for a bit, but returned it - I could hear it kick in and out on the tail of a note; the audience probably wouldn't have heard it, but if I'm not in my happy place the piece of gear that's taking me out is not one I'll keep. In the end, I think I've decided I'm just not a limiter guy - at least not on my bass.

 

[JimmyM]

I think you just need to tone down the ratio and attack. You have it set to compress pretty hard but are expecting limiting.

 

[Deleted member 165050]

Now I have the following issue:
When the Keeley is doing its job, its fine. Sounds like my bass, only not as loud. Perfect. Well, it would be, but I can clearly hear the moment when it kicks in.
I did own a cheap Thomann IEM system for a while and that had a limiter. When that limiter kicked in, it felt the same. Is it dip and swell? I don't really know, but in the moment it happens there is an uneasiness on my ears that I don't like.

Not all compressors will react fast enough to take the attack time down to 0ms or near, it may be that what you're hearing is the comp being slow to respond. If I'm correct, the Keeley Bassist doesn't have an Attack knob? You might do better with a Keeley Pro or even a dedicated limiter pedal.

 

[Chrome Dome]

I have been experimenting with a Boss Compression Sustainer CS-3. Thinking about getting a Keely Plus,someone has here locally for sale. Any suggestions,on the settings on Boss Compression Sustainer?

 

[DC in ATX]

FWIW, these are the Keeley Bassist settings that Laura Lee, from Khruangbin, uses:

This helped me get started with the Keeley

 

[dkelley]

MXR sounds like the winner for you, OP.

Nothign wrong with it at all. Great unit. Just because others might be more traditional limiters... does not necessarily mean that you truly want a traditional limiter. I bet the knee is softer in the mxr, so it's not as obvious that it's working. IMHO that is a GOOD THING for someone playing an instrument in real time and hearing the result... since it otherwise affects how you attack the notes.

MXR FTW!

 

[40Hz]

If you’re setting the ratio to max you’re going to get some less desirable responses from your compressor unless you’re deliberately using it for that effect. Maxing out the ratio results in compression coming down hard (clamping) once it cuts in. Pretty much a prescription for making it unpleasantly audible.

I’d suggest adjusting your threshold setting to have compression kick in sooner, and lowering your ratio setting to make it less obvious when it does.

 

[Bass4LifeRS]

Great advice on learning more about compressiors first. Then, you might want to try two compressors, one first in the chain, and one after the crazy effects. And experiment with the settings and hone in to something you like/can live with.
I got the Keeley and use it as a 4:1 ratio compressor on the attack of my notes only, for the first half a second or so, and after that the indicator shows that I am under the threshold again. Happy experimenting.

 

[Blue Swede]

Here is what happened:
After a long period of being happy without compression, a MXR M-87 Bass Compressor found its way back on my board. Not to even things out a little, but as a peak limiter.
I set it to fast attack, medium release, max ratio (20:1) and then set the input so that soft playing leaves it wide open. When I dig in more, it activates and I don't get more volume.
I bought that comp because it has a LED meter showing me what's going on and people generally liked it and I had to start somewhere. Now that I found a clear purpose for my comp and that purpose is peak limiting I asked around here and people were very much in favor of the Keeley Bassist as a better choice for this application. It was meant to be super clean and transparent and very well suited for keeping those peaks in check.
I found a good deal on one, which I bought and mounted on my board.

Now I have the following issue:
When the Keeley is doing its job, its fine. Sounds like my bass, only not as loud. Perfect. Well, it would be, but I can clearly hear the moment when it kicks in.
I did own a cheap Thomann IEM system for a while and that had a limiter. When that limiter kicked in, it felt the same. Is it dip and swell? I don't really know, but in the moment it happens there is an uneasiness on my ears that I don't like.

The MXR unit feels much more subtle - I use my comp very late in the chain, so the touch sensitive effects come before that. I have a Source Audio C4 where the Synth I use is set to have a super high output to distort the preamp.

The compressor has to catch that, or else the subs will shake me off the stage. I often play staccato with the synth, giving the comp a run for its money.

I now think that I don't have that much of an issue with transparency and can live with a comp that gives me a 'warmer, fatter' sound. I do need something that will chop off the peaks but so so in an organic, subtle fashion that will not be immediately noticed.
Am I making sense?

Out of curiosity, which preamp are you distorting with the output from the c4? I sold mine a while back but you should be able to get all the synthy types of distortion you want from the unit itself and then adjusting your output to be at a level your preamp/compressor can handle.

If you don’t want to go that path you could try using both compressors in series with the first one set to only get the very worst peaks (higher threshold/high ratio 8:1+) and the second one to act more as a compressor but with a low threshold and maybe a ratio of 4:1 or less. You could also try it the other way around.

I find with compressors, because of all the variables in both playing/technique and the technology used in each unit, that trial and error is the best way to go about it.

As a footnote, I am a compressor junkie myself, have the FEA labs db-cl and de-cl, the effectrode LA1A and just took delivery of the empress bass compressor today. I have also owned the Cali 76TX (but found it a bit big and coupled with my pre didn’t notice the effect of the transformer as much) and the ebs multicomp. All of this is to say that coupled with a bass, a compressor has alot of dynamic range to handle, sometimes the smallest change to one parameter will get you just where you need to be, or throw you off completely.

 

[el murdoque]

In a way, the comp is there to kill the dynamics in my setup.
When operating in 'normal' mode, my signal chain is bass -> preamp (SushiBoxFX Particle Accelerator) -> comp -> reverb -> DI
I play with a soft touch and I'm rather loud on the PA / the amp. The comp's job is to prevent that someone gets hurt when I dig in by accident.

I have a touch sensitive setup with OD (Fuzzrorious Egg Sack)->preamp (Fuzzrocious BDPG) -> preamp (Particle Accelerator) where the comp will prevent the signal from getting louder and instead of dynamics, I control the amount of distortion on my signal by how hard I play.

And there's the aforementioned synth that hits the preamp like a hammer.

So I assumed that I want lots of ratio very fast.

That's what I dialed in on the MXR and it worked fine. So I set the Keeley to max ratio and found about the same threshold I had with the MXR, but with the above mentioned issue that when it activates you can hear and feel it happening.
I wonder if there is any sense in A/B testing the comps with nothing else in the chain, because basically all I care for is what comes out of my pedal board.

 

[themickster]

According to Boss when talking about their 1X range, it's the high harmonics that need bringing down. Doing so takes down the fundamental. The BC-1X is built to leave the fundamental alone. Look up Boss Multi-dimensional Processing at BOSS - MDP Deep Dive

 

[el murdoque]

FWIW, these are the Keeley Bassist settings that Laura Lee, from Khruangbin, uses:

View attachment 4419639

This helped me get started with the Keeley

This is about exactly where mine sits now, but when I A/B the Keeley and the MXR, I still like the MXR a lot more.

MXR sounds like the winner for you, OP.

Nothign wrong with it at all. Great unit. Just because others might be more traditional limiters... does not necessarily mean that you truly want a traditional limiter. I bet the knee is softer in the mxr, so it's not as obvious that it's working. IMHO that is a GOOD THING for someone playing an instrument in real time and hearing the result... since it otherwise affects how you attack the notes.

MXR FTW!

Yeah, that is my guess, too - hence the title.
I thought I want a classic limiter because I do want my spikes leveled out without changing the sound - which is what a limiter does in my book.

I now think that I want a unit that does the compression/limiting bit with a focus on stealth when activating / releasing.

Out of curiosity, which preamp are you distorting with the output from the c4? I sold mine a while back but you should be able to get all the synthy types of distortion you want from the unit itself and then adjusting your output to be at a level your preamp/compressor can handle.


I find with compressors, because of all the variables in both playing/technique and the technology used in each unit, that trial and error is the best way to go about it.

As a footnote, I am a compressor junkie myself, have the FEA labs db-cl and de-cl, the effectrode LA1A and just took delivery of the empress bass compressor today. I have also owned the Cali 76TX (but found it a bit big and coupled with my pre didn’t notice the effect of the transformer as much) and the ebs multicomp. All of this is to say that coupled with a bass, a compressor has alot of dynamic range to handle, sometimes the smallest change to one parameter will get you just where you need to be, or throw you off completely.

The Preamp is a SushiBoxFX Particle Accelerator, sometimes in combo with a Fuzzrocious BDPG. I find it handy that I get those sounds out of the unit with the stomp of a foot - If I was able to tweak the C4 until I got the sound of the overdriven PA alone and then sat down again and copied the sound of the BDPG into the PA, I'd have to use the tiny switch on the C4, which requires fingers.


But I think I get it now. I've created a sonic micro cosmos on my pedalboard and I more or less did that around the MXR unit. What I did expect now was to drop in the Keeley in that same spot, turn the knobs to roughly the same settings and expected that I liked the result more than the sound I had before. That did not happen.
Well, who would have expected a different comp to act differently. Maybe all comps are the same in the way that all overdrives are the same ;-)

I'm already in the midst of a preamp bender and I'm not really willing or able to start hoarding comps at the same time. So I was as surprised as you might be when I found myself ordering an Origin Effects Cali76 Compact Bass Compressor. Tiny bender. Not a fully fledged one with all the bells and whistles.
The two comps I always had on my bucket list were the Cali76 and the Bassist.
I'll see what happens and most likely will sell two of those three afterwards. And maybe buy another one.

 

[sears]

I've been using a Keeley GC2, basically the same thing. I suggest turning the ratio down to noon and see what happens.

 

[frankzap]

I thought I want a classic limiter because I do want my spikes leveled out without changing the sound - which is what a limiter does in my book.

If you limit/compress more than 4-6dB you will hear/feel that and basically change the sound regardless of the “book” or compressor used.