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Computer related degrees
- Thread starter ModulusFan
- Start date
I started this job in 2006, my previous in 2003... I started with Apple in the mid 90s after a gave up trying to be a rock star.
1980 was setting precedent that it helps more to 'know' than it does to have a piece of paper in this field. Only thing the paper impresses is the people that don't know / use the technology the paper is for (which might get you an interview, but ain't getting you a job).
If you want a nice entry level helpdesk job with a big corporation, devote four or more years of your life to getting an IT degree. Also prepare yourself for a $10-12 an hour job doing that.
-Mike
-Mike
Well I'll agree with your statement, but I want to point out that it doesn't really contradict what i said.
But first, I want to point out that I'm not talking about ITT tech degrees. I'm talking about college/university degrees. Also, I'm a software developer, and it simply may be that formal education is more highly regarded (rewarded) in that field.
Sure, if you want to move up in pay, it isn't a bad idea to switch jobs fairly often (not too-too often) becuase you can usually get hired for more than you would get for a raise - YMMV. BUT, I guarantee those guys they are hiring are not straight out of high school with no experience and no degree.
Also, you are always going to be compared to what you made at your last job. A college degree is going to start you out at a higher pay rate in a better job. That's where you *start*.
Compare that to a guy who futzed about with computers on his own and settled for a help desk job reading a script. What kind of resume is that going to look like to a future employer.
"Well lets see, you've been working at a phone center for the last 2 years making $25k and you are here applying for the Net Ops position for our production site..." You are likely either not going to get the position or get lowballed on the salary because they know (at least approx.) what you were making before and you basically have no experience, still. And you almost certainly start at a lower salary than the recent grad.
Not to say that you can't make up for the imbalanced starting positions with any mix of the following. Hard-work, networking (social), attitude, brains, stick-to-it-edness, gumption and or spunk.
You say that knowing how to do the job is more important that the piece of paper, and I totally agree. Now, if you can prove to me that you either already know how to XXX or will very quickly learn how to XXX in less that about 100 words without experience or formal education before I delete the email with your resume, you're hired.
The last job I took, they were paying me for about a month before I felt that I knew enough about the product and tools that I was actually beginning to earn my salary via productivity. A lot of tech companies are like that. Therefore, hiring someone new is a big gamble both in the money they are putting up to get you up to speed and in the time they invest in training you. If they are not sure that you will work out, they don't hire you.
I'm just saying, I got a bachelors in Comp-Sci, first job out of school was from my first interview, it was doing what I went to school for (development), the offer was far, far more than $11/hr, the benefits were great, and within a year I had 2 raises and a promotion. Yeah, I worked my ass off in school and knew my $#!& for the intervew. But I know for a fact that had I applied before my diploma was in hand, I would have been politely (but firmly) ignored.
James and M^2, you guys got in when they were letting anyone in. You basically got 'on the job training' which counts for WAY more than a degree, for sure. But now the phone centers are full of guys who tried to do what you guys did, but *after* the bust. Being able to install Slackware on an old SGI box doens't count for squat now. You can't learn how to really administrate a corporate network in your basement with a few old boxes and one user. Or, install cisco hardware with out actually *buying* their equipement (and probably some kind of tiered support service).
Experiment: Try making up a resume with no experience and a HS diploma and put it up on Monster. See how many bites you get for jobs that any sane person would actually *want* to do. Bottom tier help desk doesn't count, that's like 3rd millenium 'data entry'
I agree as well... and I don't mean to trivialize a true college education. My posts have mostly been geared to the guys that hit Devry or some other 'Tech' school, grab a quick cert or 2 and expect the $75 to $100k the school sold them on. They are the ones that are filling the call centers if they didn't fall back on previous careers.
as for your experiment, my resume gets hit daily in searches... I get interesting emails that I mostly ignore.
a little side story: I was programing Pascal, Fortran and assembly in High School in the early 80s and was looking to a career as a programmer. My HS computers teacher in his infinite wisdom told me programmers would be glorified secretaries in the future and if I wanted to really hit it big I needed to focus on hardware design
I spent 5 years doing PCB drafting and design being bored out of my mind (though making a tone of cash) before giving music a go as a full time gig.
All IT jobs that don't involve dealing with hardware are moving to India. I am in the field and I would advise against this course of study. It's like getting into steel work in the early 70s. There are jobs now but no future.
If you decide to pursue it definitely get the degree. You can get into some tech work without one, but after 5 or 10 years you'll find yourself topped out and unable to move anywhere. Once the salaries and experience get to a certain point, you need a degree to move forward.
The Associate's degree is good, get as technical one as you can. I got mine in "Computer Science" and it was very rigorous. I'm now finishing my Bachelor's but my Associates has gotten me a long way. I got Co-op jobs through my school and that was a big help getting my foot in the door.
I have to disagree here. In fact there is alot of pressure now to move outsourced jobs back. People are finding out that the costs associated with outsourced programming are pretty much the same or more than doing it in house for the following reasons.
* administrative costs. you still have to pay someone to design and coordinate the offshored labor.
* time difference. I know it doesn't seem like this is a big deal in the internet age but programmers need answers and program managers need sleep.
* maintanance. I've seen alot of outsourced 'code' and I've been asked to maintain some of it... nightmare. They end up paying me far more to maintain it than they could have to just write it myself. Guess what, I would have thought of the poor schmuck that has to maintain my code and actually included things like comments, descriptive variable names, classes, methods, you know... the stuff 'real' developers do.
bottom line is, you ship something off to India. You better be damned sure that your spec is 100% complete and unambiguous and that you thought of everything that has, does and will happen. Woe be he who has to modify that code.
The company I work for does outsource some projects. But in every case, I'm GLAD they do. Because the reason it gets outsourced in the first place is because the project is so mind numbingly tedious and the problem space so theroughly routine, that it doesn't make sense to have highy paid developers wasting their time on it, and I sure as hell don't want to do it, no matter how much they are paying me.
There is a difference between a 'developer' and a 'programmer'. India is full of programmers. All of their developers moved west.
The above is true of QA engineers, DBAs, program managers and others as well. The only jobs that work well with outsourced labor are ones where the project can be broken down into small easy to understand steps by someone else. Maybe scripted customer support, but someone has to write the scripts for them. Just like I would have to write an extremely detailed spec for some guy in bangalore to 'transpose' into code. At that point, why didn't I just skip the spec and write the code?
Besides, writing the code is such a small part of any project that even if all code were outsourced, there would be plenty of work for smart developers in the states.
Edit: By the way, my company is desperate to hire more good java devs, SDETs and program managers. They are offering us thousands in referral bonuses and very competitive compensation and still aren't meeting their staffing goals. There just are not enough good developers out there.
Many good posts here. I would agree that experience without a degree is preferable to a degree without experience, but to hit today's job market you're much better off with some combination of both. I have an Associates degree in Computer Electronics with an emphasis in networking and 4 years after graduating I'm doing very well (making 3 times what I thought I would be making 4 years out from graduation). But, I have to point out that my company routinely hires degreed folks at a higher rate of pay (I'm talking thousands) than those that don't have a degree. And as others pointed out without a degree sooner or later as you rise through the industry you're going to bump into a ceiling as those around you that have the same equivalence of talent and experience are getting promoted over you because they have a degree and you do not. The smart thing to do is to build your resume so you can show both experience and a degree. It will open options to you and just make your life easier.
HAHAHAAHAHA!!
Oh man... I feel real sorry for you. Finding bugs in your own code is bad enough... but someone elses without anything to tell you what the hell is going on? That must be a nightmare.
HAHAHAAHAHA!!
Oh man... I feel real sorry for you. Finding bugs in your own code is bad enough... but someone elses without anything to tell you what the hell is going on? That must be a nightmare.
yeah and add to that the possibility that they are not native english speakers so therefore they name their variables/methods/classes in Hindi (or whatever it is)...
It seems like most jobs don't offer OTJ training anymore.
Businesses would be less hard up for employees if they lowered their standards. People learn as time goes on. A great example of this is the baby boomer ear.
I've had one jormal OTJ training session in the last 8 years... everything I've learned has been one my own.
Interested in James Hart's input on this thread (and others). I work heavily with Cisco technology (to put it that way). If one looks at IT, how can one not be excited by internetworking. it's not just computers. it's networking computers. and it's not just technical skills. it's knowing how to lead (people).
10+ years as technical writer or technical pub manager. have hired (made the decisive input) twice when interviewing others for two positions. in both cases, I recognized raw talent in candidates who were not technically the most qualified. medical or biological backgrounds but with skills applicable to technical internetworking field. in both cases, the candidates I stood up for (non-conventional) proved themselves hugely talented with ensuing raging successes. Myself? Humanitarian (linguistics) background. Currently lead a team of 10+. Jobs are out there, though I did just have a relocation forced on me. I looked at options. Jobs are out there. I favor sticking with a boss, team, and technology i know, though there could have been a generous severance package. I have bigger things in mind. No trepidations about IT or internetworking for me. Currently most bullish on residential broadband - anything related.
10+ years as technical writer or technical pub manager. have hired (made the decisive input) twice when interviewing others for two positions. in both cases, I recognized raw talent in candidates who were not technically the most qualified. medical or biological backgrounds but with skills applicable to technical internetworking field. in both cases, the candidates I stood up for (non-conventional) proved themselves hugely talented with ensuing raging successes. Myself? Humanitarian (linguistics) background. Currently lead a team of 10+. Jobs are out there, though I did just have a relocation forced on me. I looked at options. Jobs are out there. I favor sticking with a boss, team, and technology i know, though there could have been a generous severance package. I have bigger things in mind. No trepidations about IT or internetworking for me. Currently most bullish on residential broadband - anything related.
If you were even somewhat computer savvy in the 80's you were pretty much gaurenteed a decent job.
My uncle started out in the 80's with decent computer skills and a GED. Now he's head of his IT department at Northrop making 6 figures.
