And to you. I was just kidding around a bit. Seriously though, our band's focus is not about hot chicks, it's all about the music...except when we are on stage and they are right in front of us. I mean how can we not focus on that?
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Confessions of a Flatwound convert...
- Thread starter Sundogue
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And to you. I was just kidding around a bit. Seriously though, our band's focus is not about hot chicks, it's all about the music...except when we are on stage and they are right in front of us. I mean how can we not focus on that?
And to you. I was just kidding around a bit. Seriously though, our band's focus is not about hot chicks, it's all about the music...except when we are on stage and they are right in front of us. I mean how can we not focus on that?
Catch yourself..stand back brother !
I'm in a 9-piece cover band (incl. 4-pc horn section). I tried flats on my Geddy (fingerstyle) at one gig months back and was not wowed - BUT I am "leashed" to my amp (not wireless) by my cable. So I did not hear the mix out front, just at my amp. I was listening to me, not the band. Most noticeably was the perceived lack of attack I like so much about the Geddy.
I am going to re-try the experiment on my p-bass after hearing a front-of-house video recording (admittedly not good quality) of us recently. I was amazed at the lack of "bass" from the Geddy/round combo - lots of mids/highs.
Very interesting thread by the way . . . keep it up.
I am going to re-try the experiment on my p-bass after hearing a front-of-house video recording (admittedly not good quality) of us recently. I was amazed at the lack of "bass" from the Geddy/round combo - lots of mids/highs.
Very interesting thread by the way . . . keep it up.
My 7 piece, 6 singer band loves my Geddy with Chromes. Especially the drummer Tried rounds but like yoiu said. Too much mids and highs.
Might try tapes at the next rehearsal....but I have to be ready to put the Chromes back on ....
Well, I would say that playing flats is an acquired taste, but if you are coming from rounds, then it is really more a reprogramming of your mindset.
While obviously there is a purpose and need, or even a desire for rounds (and we all know what kind of sound they produce), flats produce a true "bass" sound that completely changes the way you experience bass.
For some, that change is terrible, like "Where did MY tone go?" But that is exactly my point throughout this entire thread. YOUR tone definitely went somewhere and with flats YOUR tone is gone, no doubt about it.
But...it's been replaced by a tone that most who are coming into playing flats are unfamiliar with. It's a BASS tone, not a lower tuned guitar. Appreciate the difference between the way a bass sounds strung with rounds or with flats. For some it's subtle and for others it is a big difference and one either embraces this new sound or hates it.
The thing is, as I mentioned before, it is about your mindset as a bass player. Someone asked me a few posts back why would I want my bass to be so locked in with the drums tonally that at times it is hard to differentiate between the drums and bass. But it is no different than the question, "Why would you want your bass to be locked in tonally with the guitars?" Well, the answer depends on your mindset about playing bass.
I live for the rhythm section. I don't care to be playing melodically. It isn't that one can't play melodically using flats, but really if you consider where your head is at being a bass player, and what is important to you with regards to the instrument you play you will find that there is a line drawn between the two mindsets and it is quite clear and distinct.
The big question you need to ask yourself when choosing between rounds or flats is this..."Is your bass playing mindset more inclined towards rhythm or melody? If your band plays music that requires a strong, definitive pulse and power to the rhythm section and you as a bass player want to be that guy that lays down a strong foundation for others to play over, then your mindset is perfect for playing a bass strung with flats. Now what type of flats you use and how you dial in your sound are just simple variations of that mindset.
If on the other hand, your band plays very complex material that does not need a powerful rhythm section and your bass playing mindset is such that you prefer being more melodic, then rounds are better suited to your playing. Again, what rounds you choose and how you dial in your tone is just a variation of that mindset.
Neither is better than the other, it's just a matter of where your head is at. For me, I play bass for one reason...I love the power of the rhythm section. I love that a single note has the strength to drive an entire band. I love that I can play the simplest of bass lines and yet it has the power to move people. It isn't impressive in it's complexity and it isn't going to leave other musicians in awe of my talent, but that is not why I play bass. I'm not fancy. I could be if I cared to. I don't lack the talent to be more of a soloist, but really for me what is the point in that? I'm already surrounded by very talented and capable guitarists and a keyboardist, so why add to what is already there? What my band needs meshes with what I desire to play as a bass player. SOLID, powerful, tight, defined, foot stomping, ass shaking, simple-yet-so-rhythmically-moving bass lines that are so intertwined with the drums that one cannot help but feel it deep down in their bones and soul. Then let the others in the band play all over the top of that.
It is really no different than being a guitarist and deciding whether or not you prefer playing rhythm or lead. It's a matter of your mindset and both are cool, and both are needed within the context of the type of music you play. In the context of hard rock, a guitar solo or melody may sound better with some good power chords under it, for example. Are you the lead player, or are you the guy who just loves the power chords? That is the difference in the mindset of it.
Now, having said that, I would love to get another Rick someday, string it with the brightest rounds and wail away on it ala Squire and Geddy. Still powerful, but a different mindset. Yet where I'm at in my musical career, the band I play in, and the music I play, flatwounds are better suited to my mindset as a bass player. So playing flats doesn't make it better for anyone but me, my band, and those who come out to hear and/or dance to our music. Other bass players may be in a different situation.
One could actually ask the question..."Are you a leader or a follower?" It seems counter intuitive, but if you are a follower, play melody. If you are a leader, play rhythm. Drums and bass are the foundation, but if you are soloing or playing melodically then you are following someone else's rhythmic 'lead'. In my band (and come to think of it, every band I've ever been in) I am the leader. Like football players where some are leaders in the locker room and some lead by example on the football field, I don't lead at rehearsal, but onstage I'm the one everyone follows. Doesn't matter if I just stepped into a new band. The leader may have his own ideas about his music, but once that music starts he's following me.
A band is like a train. In my current band, the drummer and I make for one hell of a train engine. The others in the band are passenger or box cars along for the ride. Using this analogy, playing with flats just made our engine stronger. Do you want that train engine to have more torque (flats) or speed (rounds)? I'd rather be the train engine built for power than a bullet train built for speed. It's a mindset.
I take a lot of pride in knowing that other musicians can count on me as their bass player, to take them where they want to go. It's my mindset. I have no desire to jump into the passenger car...it's all about the power of the engine for me.
Those who are riding the fence and still aren't sure if flats are for them just need to ask themselves where their mindset is as a bass player. No need to play flats if they aren't suited for you. Rounds and flats have their place. Are you more a Chris Squire type or a Cliff Williams type? As talented as Squire is and as awesome as the tone he gets is, he would just plain suck as the bass player for AC/DC. I and my band are more of the AC/DC type so flats are where it's at for me.
Nice post again Sundogue. I have a question to you: Are you playing only with a pick, or are you also using fingers? I think the difference between flats and rounds in the mix is smaller when playing with fingers, especially if you suppress the highest frequencies, either by not using a tweeter, or by EQ:ing them away. The pick normally brings out more treble from the strings than fingers do and I can very well see that using flats when playing with a pick gives a more pronounced bass tone. The clip in post 552 proves that.
Anyway, I'm a fingerstyle player and I've played nothing but flats the last ½ year. And I love it. There's certain songs that perhaps sound better with rounds on, but I'm a one-bass-only guy on stage and I hate switching between basses. I just choose the bass that suits the music the best, and change my plucking style depending on what sound I want to deliver. Tonight I'm doing an Abba covers gig. On the first rehearsal I brought my jazz, strung with pyramid golds. It's my main bass and a great all-purpose one. I love the sound of it. However on the second rehearsal yesterday, I brought my cheap stingray copy (pickup replaced) strung with chromes, that I've actually been planning to get rid of. It works in this context better, with the stronger mids the humbucker in the bridge position delivers, and the sound character of those chromes is definitely more roundish than those pyramids while still sounding like flats should. With the tweeter off, that is...
The Abba repertoire is rather challenging to me, as I'm a bit like you Sundogue in regards to how I normally play. I love providing a foundation for the music that the other instruments build the song upon, but some of these songs feature basslines that are very far from that, more melodic. Great basslines as such, but I needed to adjust quite a lot to get a sound that fitted that music.
Anyway, I'm a fingerstyle player and I've played nothing but flats the last ½ year. And I love it. There's certain songs that perhaps sound better with rounds on, but I'm a one-bass-only guy on stage and I hate switching between basses. I just choose the bass that suits the music the best, and change my plucking style depending on what sound I want to deliver. Tonight I'm doing an Abba covers gig. On the first rehearsal I brought my jazz, strung with pyramid golds. It's my main bass and a great all-purpose one. I love the sound of it. However on the second rehearsal yesterday, I brought my cheap stingray copy (pickup replaced) strung with chromes, that I've actually been planning to get rid of. It works in this context better, with the stronger mids the humbucker in the bridge position delivers, and the sound character of those chromes is definitely more roundish than those pyramids while still sounding like flats should. With the tweeter off, that is...
The Abba repertoire is rather challenging to me, as I'm a bit like you Sundogue in regards to how I normally play. I love providing a foundation for the music that the other instruments build the song upon, but some of these songs feature basslines that are very far from that, more melodic. Great basslines as such, but I needed to adjust quite a lot to get a sound that fitted that music.
Nice post again Sundogue. I have a question to you: Are you playing only with a pick, or are you also using fingers? I think the difference between flats and rounds in the mix is smaller when playing with fingers, especially if you suppress the highest frequencies, either by not using a tweeter, or by EQ:ing them away. The pick normally brings out more treble from the strings than fingers do and I can very well see that using flats give a more pronounced bass tone. The clip posted here in post 550 something proves that.
Anyway, I'm a fingerstyle player and I've played nothing but flats the last ½ year. And I love it. There's certain songs that perhaps sound better with rounds on, but I'm a one-bass-only guy on stage and I hate switching between basses. I just choose the bass that suits the music the best, and change my plucking style depending on what sound I want to deliver. Tonight I'm doing an Abba covers gig. On the first rehearsal I brought my jazz only, strung with pyramid golds. It's my main bass and a great all-purpose one. I love the sound of it. However on the second rehearsal yesterday, I brought my cheap stingray copy (pickup replaced) strung with chromes, that I've been planning to get rid of. It works in this context better, with the stronger mids the humbucker in the bridge position delivers, and the sound character of those chromes is definitely more roundish than those pyramids while still sounding like flats should. With the tweeter off, that is...
The Abba repertoire is rather challenging to me, as I'm a bit like you Sundogue in regards to how I normally play. I love providing a foundation for the music that the other instruments build the song upon, but some of these songs feature basslines that are very far from that. Great basslines as such, but I needed to adjust quite a lot to get a sound that fits that music.
I've always been a crossover type player and I'm at ease and equally adept at playing the same lines with either my fingers or a pick. It's more of a mood thing than for any other reason.
Lately I've been using a pick almost exclusively. And you are right, with a pick there is just more treble in the initial attack of the stroke. So, of course with flats it does provide more "punch" I guess because tonally the flats lay back more, yet the pick accentuates the attack.
I've been finding that when playing flats with my fingers they have a duller sound unless I EQ to compensate. But in the long run, it's all about what gets me where I want to go. I'm finding that playing with a pick makes me use my whole arm more and rhythmically it is getting my entire body into the groove of the song more and thus I am "feeling" the music in a way I haven't before. When playing with my fingers it tended to be all in my hands (as the saying goes) whereas now it's my entire body. And it is doing wonders for the groove. I don't anchor my hand as much when playing with a pick, I let my whole arm hang free and stroke the strings as if I were strumming an acoustic guitar. Amazing difference in how much stronger the vibe feels playing this way.
With regards to string choice and my current playing style, I'm finding that flats just have such a solid "punch in the face" tone and are more even sounding all over (regardless of where I pick or what strings I'm playing) that I am less concerned with subtleties (where I need to be more sure of hand placement for muting or tonal variation) and I'm allowed to be freer and just let myself get lost in the music. It's energizing really. I'm less a technician and more fluid and "zen-like" in my approach using the combination of flats with a pick. Could I be that way using rounds? Sure. But flats are getting me to think differently about my approach to playing bass.
There are many songs I play that have more complex bass lines that are more melodic than rhythmic, but even with those I am scaling back and simplifying them...and enjoying them more. Some bass players in the audience may feel I'm just not good enough or care not to learn them the correct way (they'd be wrong).
I have been paying close attention to bass players and how busy or simple they play lately. I'm finding that much like when we play fast, complex lines we should use "economy of motion", I do believe that our music is more powerful by using "economy of notes" as a bass player.
Try going through some of those Abba tunes and see how many of the notes are really necessary to make those songs work.
That's partially what I do already, but I want to stay rather close to the originals on this gig.
I openly admit I haven't got the chops to play too intricate complex lines, so instead I make sure that the lines I do play really groove by bringing them "down to my level"
, and people often say I can groove pretty well. When I play, I dig in rather hard every now and then to get enough punch and dynamics into my playing, and that is forcing me to use the principle "economy of notes" rather than "economy of motion". Also the adrenaline I get from playing live makes me dig in more, preventing me from playing the most complex lines. More energy into fewer notes... I guess that's what we're both aiming to get. Just in slightly different ways. I feel crippled with a pick in my hand, I've never been able to get a sound I'm comfortable with when playing that way, unless I also palm mute. I love that sound, but it's difficult to play that way. I'm only really comfortable when playing with fingers...
This thread is very thought-provoking and intriguing. I am a metal/rock player and have always used a pick. Always used solid state and active pups and roundwounds. It was THE sound of the late '80s when I began.
I have recently converted to an Ampeg SVT Classic and passive J pups and I love the low end and woodiness I'm getting. I recently learned that the tube amps are "perceived" to be louder due to the gradual distortion curve versus the harsh clipping of solid state. Okay, to the flats! I've tried flats a few times (damn Steve Harris) and I cannot hear them. I'm reading this posts about the "low sonic space" and it sounds logical. HOWEVER, if the tubes distort more gradually due to the OVERTONES/HARMONICS, it seems logical to me that the rounds would be "perceived" louder for the same reason. What am I missing? I'm open-minded enough to give anything another chance. I must admit I like my slides with the rounds and I like the string noise and fret clang as well. I like to play chords and double guitar parts that a lot of purists do not. I want the lowest frequencies I can get with my B string though. SO are the flats truly reaching LOWER FREQUENCIES than rounds?
I have recently converted to an Ampeg SVT Classic and passive J pups and I love the low end and woodiness I'm getting. I recently learned that the tube amps are "perceived" to be louder due to the gradual distortion curve versus the harsh clipping of solid state. Okay, to the flats! I've tried flats a few times (damn Steve Harris) and I cannot hear them. I'm reading this posts about the "low sonic space" and it sounds logical. HOWEVER, if the tubes distort more gradually due to the OVERTONES/HARMONICS, it seems logical to me that the rounds would be "perceived" louder for the same reason. What am I missing? I'm open-minded enough to give anything another chance. I must admit I like my slides with the rounds and I like the string noise and fret clang as well. I like to play chords and double guitar parts that a lot of purists do not. I want the lowest frequencies I can get with my B string though. SO are the flats truly reaching LOWER FREQUENCIES than rounds?
That's partially what I do already, but I want to stay rather close to the originals on this gig.
I openly admit I haven't got the chops to play too intricate complex lines, so instead I make sure that the lines I do play really groove by bringing them "down to my level"
More energy into fewer notes... I guess that's what we're both aiming to get. Just in slightly different ways. I feel crippled with a pick in my hand, I've never been able to get a sound I'm comfortable with when playing that way, unless I also palm mute. I love that sound, but it's difficult to play that way. I'm only really comfortable when playing with fingers...
I think my feelings on this are a reflection of my lifestyle. My wife and I have been purposely living more simply and with more purpose in every thing we do and it is showing up in many others areas of my life.
So of course my bass playing is an extension of that. As I remove the clutter of my life, so too I'm removing the clutter in my music.
I find myself gravitating towards bass lines that say more with less (now if only my writing would follow suit
). I've never liked busy guitar solos that were played fast and furious, packing as many notes as possible into a measure. They never spoke to me. Same with bass lines. I am especially conscious of it these days. Every bass line to every song I hear, I am always thinking if it could be phrased more simply for better impact. Like a STOP sign has more impact than the wordy diatribe on the virtues of driving slower in school zones, music has more impact on me the simpler it is.
Which is precisely why playing hard rock with a bass strung with flats has more appeal to me these days. I'm saying more musically with less of everything not needed. Do I need to play busy bass lines on roundwound strings that have more overtones and zing to them? Subtleties are just lost, to the point of being a waste of energy.
I listened to 30 other bands last weekend at a music festival I played in. I paid attention to every song that every bass player played. We all had fun and obviously those bass players thoroughly enjoyed playing the lines they played, and most if not all, overplayed and branched out on many songs with a lot of enthusiastic embellishments. But it pointed out to me how very little it added to the music aside from what the bass player felt himself playing it or what his fellow musicians appreciated in it. Which is all cool. To each his own.
As for me, I just found it to be unnecessary notes that not only had no impact, but rather actually detracted from the music itself.
No, round or flat, tuned to the same pitch, any string is reaching the same frequency, thats the definition of tuning.
Flats do have more fundemental, less overtones, leading to a deeper sound, but the lowest frequency stays the same.
Flats or rounds when tuned to pitch will resonate at the exact same frequency per given note. They have to or they would not be in tune.
However, flats have a stronger fundamental while rounds have more harmonic content, so generally (there are always exceptions) with a note like an open low E (which is 41 Hz), more of the 41 Hz, 82Hz, 164Hz, etc. would be heard from flats, but more of the upper mids and highs of those harmonic frequencies would be heard with rounds. That is why they sound brighter.
That does not mean that flats or rounds ONLY produce either fundamental or harmonic frequencies...they both will produce all of it, but the characteristics of flats and rounds just accentuate different frequencies more or less...generally but not always. How you EQ affects that as well.
From your previous posts and from my previous post, your mindset seems to say...play rounds. You may not be a flatwound kind of player. I won't hold it against you.
Checking in after a more or less disastrous Abba gig. Two rehearsals are not enough to learn 15 Abba songs. Not with obvious amateurs on keys and guitars that didn't really know their parts... Anyway, I'm pretty pleased with my own and the drummers performance, we synced really well, also according to people in the audience. Well to the point: The choice of bass was definitely right - Stingray copy w/ Delano pup and Chromes. It sat there perfectly in the mix for this music, and a friend in the audience (a guitarist) said my sound was really well defined, you could hear every single note clearly and the punch was there. I heard it as as far away from mud as you can come without losing the bottom end.
I run the bass into a preamp/compressor (Art Tube Pac) with some slight compression on, and from there to both my amp (see profile, full setup) and the PA, using the balanced and unbalanced outputs. The compressor kind of defeats one of the purposes with flats (strong attack, faster decay), but on the other hand, I don't think I ever would have gotten such a clear, well-defined sound with rounds. At least not without some unwanted string noise. I also got some complements for my solo in "Gimme Gimme..." in which I even slapped a little. The chromes are definitely slap-able, although it otherwise isn't my cup of tea.
I've come to the conclusion that I will not sell the bass or switch strings on it anytime soon, if it continue sounding like it did today. Just the perfect sound, at least for this gig.
I run the bass into a preamp/compressor (Art Tube Pac) with some slight compression on, and from there to both my amp (see profile, full setup) and the PA, using the balanced and unbalanced outputs. The compressor kind of defeats one of the purposes with flats (strong attack, faster decay), but on the other hand, I don't think I ever would have gotten such a clear, well-defined sound with rounds. At least not without some unwanted string noise. I also got some complements for my solo in "Gimme Gimme..." in which I even slapped a little. The chromes are definitely slap-able, although it otherwise isn't my cup of tea.
I've come to the conclusion that I will not sell the bass or switch strings on it anytime soon, if it continue sounding like it did today. Just the perfect sound, at least for this gig.
I shared this thread with a pro bass player friend of mine and he is getting flats put on his Geddy Lee, immediately and is going to test them out in his band.
I'll let you know how he likes them.
I wish I could find some nickel wound or plated ones. Around here they are all the Fender stainless ones or the D'darrio Chromes, and I want some nickel sounding strings. Might have to custom order.
Duffy
I'll let you know how he likes them.
I wish I could find some nickel wound or plated ones. Around here they are all the Fender stainless ones or the D'darrio Chromes, and I want some nickel sounding strings. Might have to custom order.
Duffy
The Pyramid Golds and Thomastik-Infeld Jazz flats are both at least partially made of nickel. I love these strings, especially the pyramids.
In my opinion, the tonal and sensational characteristics between different brands of flatwounds are way bigger than between roundwounds. The pyramids are way different from the chromes, for instance.
I think as a first set the Fender 9050 flats would be great to try. They have the typical flatwound thump for what I've heard, but I haven't tried them myself. They're pretty inexpensive and also many people's favorite strings. I'd advice against looking only at strings of one material (nickel), there's a lot of good flats out there made of other materials as well.
The chromes play almost like rounds but have a stronger fundamental, strong mids, and they lack that roundwound zing. They're very bright, but not in the same way as rounds. I think you can fool anyone to believe you're playing rounds when playing these, however.
The pyramids have a more typical flatwound character. Slightly less mids than the chromes, and they have lower tension, making them less slappable as there's less "bounce" in them. The "pop" sound is however great. Very well-balanced, smooth sound overall. The less mids in these make them less suitable for music like disco, funk etc, but for rock, jazz etc, I would say these work better.
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