Reality Check on this whole subject. I play in a Blues band,I love using Flats in my Blues band but, sometimes I get in a room that doesn't like my Flats. These are big boomy halls,and I can't hear the notes,and all the EQ'ing by our sound man won't help the situation. For these rooms I use a Fender Precision P/J Bass strung up with GHS Bass Boomers Roundwound Strings. Some halls hate Flatwound strings. I've had a discussion on this very issue with Bob Babbitt. Bob is using Nickel Roundwound Bass Strings for this very reason. In the right room,Flats can Kill....in the wrong room,Flats can Kill your sound. Anybody who doesn't believe me,go to Bob Babbitt's website and ask him about this....you may begin to see why so many Flatwound players from the past are now using Roundwounds. Peace
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Confessions of a Flatwound convert...
- Thread starter Sundogue
- Start date
- Status
Carol Kaye only uses flats... TI flats, which arguably sound more like nickel rounds than traditional flats...
Depends HOW you're using that flat-strung bass IMO. If you're running through some Ampeg rigs and in general having a dark sound from your rig, then I TOTALLY agree with you on flats being a negative in many environments. However, since I use a more modern, bright sounding rig, this doesn't EVER become an issue for me. If anythig I'll just back off the bass knob and turn the volume up.
I find in boomy rooms I have to cut the bass, sometimes a *lot*. But, knock on wood, I have only found stage (a very high hollow stage) I couldn't tame this way.
P.S. The solution on that high stage would have been to put the amp on the floor in front of the stage. But we were only doing a short gig, so I didn't bother.
If it's working for you....more power to ya. I have to rely on Backlines for many of my shows,so a lot of the time I never know what I'll be using for the night. I am always happy to see an Ampeg rig though....it's a lot of my sound,Flats or Not. I have run into the same issue with modern amps as well....just so you know. I've tried pulling the Bass back and turn up the volume (I've tried it all).....I lose the tone,character,and it just don't sound right. The rounds become a better compromise if I face that situation. I am not looking for advise.....just trying to pass some on to anybody here who thinks Flatwounds are the end all string for any musical situation. If you've found something you think works for you.....stick with it....I have no idea of the size venues you play,most of mine are very large theaters. Take Care
There is absolutely no doubt that Flats don't work for everyone in all situations anymore than rounds do. For that matter not all basses or rigs do either. Always some compromises and the rooms played in have a huge affect on the outcome as well.
This is a very long thread and I've mentioned that many, many times throughout and not once did I say that flats were the be all and end all for everyone. If I did, it was a tongue in cheek response to someone. They simply woke me up to a sound I hadn't seriously considered previously. I'm no longer only concerned with "my" tone. I've put "me" on the backburner and opened myself to possibilities. I've gone back to rounds on numerous occasions and sometimes they just fit, but it's always a temporary thing with me now.
Flats are where it's at...for me. I'm not Bob Babbit, nor is he me. I have no desire to sound like, or emulate Bob and I'd be confident he'd feel the same way about me. But I have a suspicion that rounds did for Bob what flats did for me. So it's all cool anyway, right?
Reality check on the whole subject (since I'm the one who started this thread)...I don't care what works for you, or Bob or anyone else. What worked for me and gave me an epiphany of sorts was switching to flats. It made me look at myself in a whole new musical light. It could have been a variety of things converging on that single moment in time that made me take my playing to a whole new level (not better, just different). Just happened that it was a switch to flats that instigated it and I now have a whole new appreciation and love for bass playing I didn't have before. I just thought I'd share that here because you never know who you might inspire.
Doesn't mean you or Bob need to jump on the train.
P.S. - Name dropping means nothing to me. I don't idolize anyone, nor does a well known name lend any validity to any argument about what works for me. James Jamerson used flats, so does Duck Dunn. So what? Does that mean they're right, so I must be right too?
I KNOW I'm right simply because it works for me. It doesn't mean I know it will for others. And it doesn't make you wrong, unless you are trying to convince me otherwise. I never intended to presume that what works for me, works for others. But flats get slammed unjustifiably, and this thread was intended to show others who might be tempted to try flats that they are a viable choice. And apparently many agree. Enough to know that though it doesn't work for you or Bob, flats certainly do for many. I've been playing for 30 years with moderate levels of success. At least enough to have enjoyed where I've been, as well as where I'm at now musically. I brought joy to a lot of people via music and that's all that matters. No one is ever going to drop my name in a conversation and I am totally cool with that.I was using Bob Babbitt as an example of one of many profesional,experianced Bassist who has mentioned to me in conversation switching over to Roundwound Bass strings,I've also spoke with George Porter Jr. on this very subject. By all means,what may work for you,may not work for me,Bob,or George. My 'Reality Check' statement was not intended to get you hot under the coller,I apologize if it upset you. BTW,I use Flatwounds about 98 precent of the time on a Fender 1966 Precision.....sometimes though....I just can't. All The Best To You Sundogue.....Glad You Found Your Tone After 30 Years.....Some People Never Do. Peace
It's cool with me. Yeah, I kind of got the impression you were dissin' me a bit with the "reality check" thing, like flats are just so outdated and not as useful any longer.
And for what it's worth, for 30 years all I played were rounds. Flats were never "my" thing, which is why it surprised me all the more how much they are my thing now.
Peace to you as well.
Folks,some more observations from last week's Moscow concert of Billy Idol.
I've always loved that specifically 'in your face" bass on his records. His current bassist,Mr Big-Name- Dropped-Here(well, it's Steve McGrath , was changing the instruments all the time-all colors & kinds of Precisions and Jazz basses and whatever labels I've missed due to thorough enjoyment of a hi-energy new wave punk.
Now,Steve apparently uses both rounds and flats on his gear.
At times I did hear that hateful roundwound clank which marked another change from flats to rounds for me,which strangely coincided with general loss of the band power and worsened the mix every time. Very subjective,but ,being used to Idol's sound,
I couldn't help but notice that specific change.So,the rounds couldn't seem to solve the puzzle of Luzhniki venue acoustics,which some unknown flats did perfectly. Thanks Steve,the band rocked most of the gig incredibly!!
I've always loved that specifically 'in your face" bass on his records. His current bassist,Mr Big-Name- Dropped-Here(well, it's Steve McGrath
, was changing the instruments all the time-all colors & kinds of Precisions and Jazz basses and whatever labels I've missed due to thorough enjoyment of a hi-energy new wave punk.Now,Steve apparently uses both rounds and flats on his gear.
At times I did hear that hateful roundwound clank which marked another change from flats to rounds for me,which strangely coincided with general loss of the band power and worsened the mix every time. Very subjective,but ,being used to Idol's sound,
I couldn't help but notice that specific change.So,the rounds couldn't seem to solve the puzzle of Luzhniki venue acoustics,which some unknown flats did perfectly. Thanks Steve,the band rocked most of the gig incredibly!!
I'm also a recent flatwound convert, and I've tried at least 5 different brands / gauges in the past year. I feel that after almost a year of experimenting that I've found my strings. It's LaBella light gauge flats on my P bass, and DR flats on my '75 Fender / Alleva-Coppolo Jazz. Both strings are really smooth and playable, and also very bright sounding, but have totally different sonic characteristics. The LaBellas are probably the perfect strings for a P-bass if you want to retain that growly crunch and chimey mid range. The DRs have super low end punch and lots of smooth glassy highs, without the string noise and zing of rounds. Neither string sounds lacking in any way, and I don't keep any of my basses strung with rounds anymore.
Commreman
Faith, Family, Fitness, and Frets
OK, I've just completed 4 very different and distinct gigs into my switch to flats on my Jazz Bass. For the record, I'm using D'addario Chromes .40-.60-.80-.100., and the best way to describe my band is a "Jersey Shore" R&B based classic rock and soul/Stax sound.
First gig was an outdoor boardwalk bar show in Pt. Pleasant Beach, with my rig and the house PA. I noticed that the flats were fatter sounding out of the gate. The strings were put on the bass 2 days before, so they were not broken in. Right away I noticed more of a present mid punch with these. I have played rounds for the last 30 years, so I knew that there would be an adjustment period for me as well. First gig, these were a little "sticky" to the touch. I did like them, and was willing to keep them on for a true break in period.
Second gig was 2 days later in a club with a great stage. These strings sounded like thunder with my rig, through the club's PA system. They were (and still are) plenty bright, but not as bright as new rounds - they sound like a nicely broken in set of rounds, and sat very well with the kick drum.
Third gig was a casino gig with a house rig and PA. The strings at this gig were breaking in nicely, and really sounded great in the mix. I agree that they occupied their own "sonic space"; more than one person at this show asked if I installed hotter pickups in my bass!
Fourth gig was an outdoor show Sunday afternoon at the Jersey Shore Jazz and Blues festival, with a supplied rig and PA. By this time, the sticky feeling of the strings were gone - they were nice and slinky smooth, and I'm now accustomed to the feel of these strings and what I can do with them. I'm digging the tone of these like crazy. I can keep them smooth, or make them growl, dependent on left hand pressure, right hand placement, etc. Once I figured these strings out, I'm getting great definition and kick from them.
Thanks to this very informative thread, this is my first experience with flats. Prior, I would not have considered them. So far, I'm glad that I did.
First gig was an outdoor boardwalk bar show in Pt. Pleasant Beach, with my rig and the house PA. I noticed that the flats were fatter sounding out of the gate. The strings were put on the bass 2 days before, so they were not broken in. Right away I noticed more of a present mid punch with these. I have played rounds for the last 30 years, so I knew that there would be an adjustment period for me as well. First gig, these were a little "sticky" to the touch. I did like them, and was willing to keep them on for a true break in period.
Second gig was 2 days later in a club with a great stage. These strings sounded like thunder with my rig, through the club's PA system. They were (and still are) plenty bright, but not as bright as new rounds - they sound like a nicely broken in set of rounds, and sat very well with the kick drum.
Third gig was a casino gig with a house rig and PA. The strings at this gig were breaking in nicely, and really sounded great in the mix. I agree that they occupied their own "sonic space"; more than one person at this show asked if I installed hotter pickups in my bass!
Fourth gig was an outdoor show Sunday afternoon at the Jersey Shore Jazz and Blues festival, with a supplied rig and PA. By this time, the sticky feeling of the strings were gone - they were nice and slinky smooth, and I'm now accustomed to the feel of these strings and what I can do with them. I'm digging the tone of these like crazy. I can keep them smooth, or make them growl, dependent on left hand pressure, right hand placement, etc. Once I figured these strings out, I'm getting great definition and kick from them.
Thanks to this very informative thread, this is my first experience with flats. Prior, I would not have considered them. So far, I'm glad that I did.
You're finding what I did...that with a live situation in the context of playing with a full band, flats provide a particular sonic space for the bass. Certainly not for everyone and every situation (like I really need need to quantify my statements with this every time I extol the virtues of flats
) but they do have some kind of mojo working for them that rounds just do not have. Of course the same can be said for rounds given a different context. And I am a HUGE D'Addario Chromes lover. Those strings just fit so many styles and for a flat seem more open and bright when needed.
Commreman
Faith, Family, Fitness, and Frets
Agreed.You're finding what I did...that with a live situation in the context of playing with a full band, flats provide a particular sonic space for the bass. Certainly not for everyone and every situation (like I really need need to quantify my statements with this every time I extol the virtues of flats
And I am a HUGE D'Addario Chromes lover. Those strings just fit so many styles and for a flat seem more open and bright when needed.
There are certain tunes that we are doing in drop D, and the definition of the d tuned E string is not lost at all. The other pleasant surprise is how well these strings play with my Boss OC-2. I'm using this pedal on songs such as "Late in the Evening" and "Sledgehammer", and have found that there is less decay and glitchiness from the effect with these strings. For the record, the OC-2 is an effect that you need to learn how to play - it reacts to finger pressure and touch, and to avoid the aforementioned glitchiness, you need to be cognizant of how much pressure you are using. I'm guessing that the more mid focus of the strings themselves have something to do with how well they work with this pedal. I can't scientifically back this up; I can only go on what my experience is.
Flats have turned out to provide a damn near perfect tone for the type of music I'm performing with this band. I am enjoying them immensely with my Jazz Bass (passive).
You guys all really make me want to try Flats. And ive decided i will. One question though, is the light gauge set tight enough for Dropped tuning to lets say Drop C? i wanna get the medium size but the 5 string versions only come in light
Commreman
Faith, Family, Fitness, and Frets
I've only gone to drop D with my Hipshot D Tuner, with no issues whatsoever. The tension on the Chromes work wonderfully for this application. I'm using a .100 E string; if you are concerned about "flop", try a .105 E string and raise the bridge saddle a little. That should work.
The only issue I've found with flats is they seem to pick up more pick noise for whatever reason. Maybe since more of the pick surface contacts the string since the string is totally flat VS rounds where the pick would only contact the apex of the curve of the round wound wraps? Beats me, but my current band prefers the attack and cutting sound of the pick and I'm constantly rolling off my highs to counter the pick noise.
But otherwise I'm in love with LaBella flats. Such a solid note and sound out of those strings. Makes all of the other strings I've tried sound like guitar strings strung on a bass.
But otherwise I'm in love with LaBella flats. Such a solid note and sound out of those strings. Makes all of the other strings I've tried sound like guitar strings strung on a bass.
Commreman
Faith, Family, Fitness, and Frets
You should visit Carol Kaye's website and forum, and study her picking technique. There is a ton of great information there! She uses LaBella flats with a pick as well.
She uses and sells TI flats, not Labella.
She probably has the best price for them anywhere, as well.
Commreman
Faith, Family, Fitness, and Frets
She uses and sells TI flats, not Labella.
She probably has the best price for them anywhere, as well.
You're right! My bad. Too early in the morning. I need more coffee.......
I've been using flats almost exclusively for about 8 years. Before that I was a nickel rounds guy; but even then I preferred the sound AFTER the strings got old!
Anyway, regarding the pick sound: I rarely use a pick. But when I do, I turn down the tone knob quite a bit, and then it sounds great. You still get that aggressive pick tone, but without the pick noise.
- Status
