Carol Kaye....A Great ! Carol uses the Thomastik Jazz Flatwounds these days. Most all her recorded hits from the '60's & 70's were done with stock Fender strings,so she says.
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Confessions of a Flatwound convert...
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Carol Kaye....A Great ! Carol uses the Thomastik Jazz Flatwounds these days. Most all her recorded hits from the '60's & 70's were done with stock Fender strings,so she says.
T
tifftunes
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I tried LaBella "Deep Talkin'" flats on my Carvin LB50, and one of my Hofners... In fact, Carvin branded flats were made by LaBella for a while... However, nothing I have tried beats Pyramid/Hofner strings on the Hofners!!! Although I have not tried the TIs on anything yet, and have yet to try Chromes on a Hofner. But the Chromes sound great on all my solid body basses! When I get brave enough, I'll try the Chromes on the Hofner. TIs too, when I can afford it.
When I first started playing bass some 44 years ago, flats were all you could get. I tried RWs in the late 70s, and liked 'em better after about 150 hours or so... Probably 'cause they sounded more like flats. But flats (except the stainless) had a better over-all sound than such "old" RWs. Flats made today are so much better as well!
I've also been a "recordist" (recording engineer) for nearly 30 years. The OP's findings also translate to most recordings. Meaning, in the mix stage, most bass guitars are whittled down sonically, to fit around the drums, and "beneath" the guitars. There just isn't enough sonic space in a recording to allow lots of "zing" and RW overtones. Boy did I hear about THAT! Those of you who may have thought I was nutz for saying so may not realize what is being done "in the mix." But if you're recording with any size band other than 3 piece, the "top" is certainly being rolled off, and usually a good portion of the upper mids (unless the RW sound blended with the guitars is what fits the song). As Walter Cronkite used to say, "that's the way it is." I didn't make it up!
Flats rule for Jazz, Blues, and most Rock! I haven't found anything yet that couldn't be played on flats. I must admit, I don't slap, or tune down much... And as with anything and everything, I can only write what I know to be true for me (too bad this disclaimer is necessary!).
When I first started playing bass some 44 years ago, flats were all you could get. I tried RWs in the late 70s, and liked 'em better after about 150 hours or so... Probably 'cause they sounded more like flats. But flats (except the stainless) had a better over-all sound than such "old" RWs. Flats made today are so much better as well!
I've also been a "recordist" (recording engineer) for nearly 30 years. The OP's findings also translate to most recordings. Meaning, in the mix stage, most bass guitars are whittled down sonically, to fit around the drums, and "beneath" the guitars. There just isn't enough sonic space in a recording to allow lots of "zing" and RW overtones. Boy did I hear about THAT! Those of you who may have thought I was nutz for saying so may not realize what is being done "in the mix." But if you're recording with any size band other than 3 piece, the "top" is certainly being rolled off, and usually a good portion of the upper mids (unless the RW sound blended with the guitars is what fits the song). As Walter Cronkite used to say, "that's the way it is." I didn't make it up!
Flats rule for Jazz, Blues, and most Rock! I haven't found anything yet that couldn't be played on flats. I must admit, I don't slap, or tune down much... And as with anything and everything, I can only write what I know to be true for me (too bad this disclaimer is necessary!).
Commreman
Faith, Family, Fitness, and Frets
Here is the thread that details the Carole Kaye pick method:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=452467
I most certainly agree with you about flats being great for almost all styles. If you're trying to get that Stanley Clarke slap sounds, I don't think you can pull that off (no pun intended) with flats. IMO & IME.
I have a set that I'll toss on my Jazz and it sounds great! Pick or finger style. Just not thump + pluck (ala Stanley).
That said, if you're shooting at an old-school, Larry Graham sounding 'slap' - flats'll get you there - I think! That's what slapping sounded like to me on my J - dull, dead, but definitely funky.
T
tifftunes
Guest
S. Clark also played "lead" on a "piccolo" bass. No way to get his "piccolo" sound without RWs. But he is also a master at stand-up bass! Wish I had even half his chops!!!
Oh, no question that's true. The point is that getting that classic, "electric Stanley" sound - not just the piccolo bass sound - but to get that ubiquitous, Alembic, clean, bright, clear, in-your-face, electriClarke sound - flats are unfortunately unable to get in on that territory.
But as for being very versatile and surprisingly broad - flats are definitely able to provide that. I think the "problem" with flats for many is that because a lot of basses sound 'better' (brighter, more instant gratification) with rounds, when people play a set of flats they tend to feel like something is missing - and something is - but it's not a bad thing that it's missing - but it 'feels' like it is...
You need to prepare your mind to adjust to the nature of flats and wean yourself off of the instant gratification of rounds before you can fully appreciate all that flats can do.
Does that make sense?
...if it helps, I use medium or heavy flats on three of my four axes - including both of my six-string guitars.
Chromes are my current favourite, mostly because they're relatively cheap and easy to come by, but there;s no comparison of tone in terms of fatness and depth, between rounds and flats. Flats have the deep, dark market cornered.
Chromes are my current favourite, mostly because they're relatively cheap and easy to come by, but there;s no comparison of tone in terms of fatness and depth, between rounds and flats. Flats have the deep, dark market cornered.
had a set on for about 24 hours (about half an hour of which was spend playing) sop far i think they make it sound less like a guitar and more distinctively bass...
Yes, it does make sense. I also find that when playing alone some may find flats to be missing something (as you said) because when soloed there is no competing sounds somewhat covering the roundwound tone. Therefore the rounds distinctive tone is readily apparent.
The point behind my initial post was that within the context of an entire band playing, what is missing (that zingy bright tone) is scarcely noticed, yet what flats add is tremendous to the overall sound of the rhythm section.
On your point about Stanley Clark (and I would add Chris Squire and others) I find most of the roundwound tone is not as noticeable when you hear the overall band sound, though when soloed or more prominent in the mix the roundwound tone is there. Slap style (ala Clark) does produce a more pronounced tone (along with the associated peaks of attack), so of course roundwounds fit that style. When not slapping the roundwound tone is just not as noticeable (to me).
It seems to be more a preference for what is gained when playing solo, at softer volumes or when the bass is very forward in the mix (as when the bass player is more or less the star of the show).
I struggled (or at least over analyzed) my tone for 30 years...never quite finding "my" sound (which seems to be a recurring theme here at TB). It wasn't until I switched to flats (and gave myself proper time to acclimate to the different feel and tone) that I realized what I wanted in "my" sound all along was more about the sound of the rhythm section as a whole, not me alone. If that makes any sense.
I feel what you're saying about struggling to find your tone. I remember when I first started playing the bass, I used to practice with the tone knob rolled completely off, and I would always EQ the high end out. I hated my sound, and struggled for years to find my sound, and it took me 20 years to realize that I just needed to find the right strings.
T
tifftunes
Guest
Agreed! Additionally, those who played RWs first (before flats), typically began their bass "careers" with RWs because that is what is sold on a new bass (since, what, mid to late 70s?).
Me, OTOH (and most of my "vintage"), began playing bass with flats, because that was what came on them when new, and RWs weren't even available yet. RWs were exciting for a while when they became available... But I didn't take to them because they required more work to "fit" into a band... I was probably looking at it (and hearing them) from a recordist's perspective then too...
I'm also a guitarist. It took 3 decades to "want" to try flats on my guitars. It just sounded ******** to me... However, there are certain vintage sounds I simply love to hear, that come from nothing else!
Ultimately, as a bassist, flats cover 95%, and RWs are the "specialty" strings. And as a guitarist, the opposite is true.
As a recording engineer, and mixer, I always cringe when the bassist walks in with RWs, and eventually asks why I "buried" his bass sound... and could I turn it up?
Just put a set of Chromes on my newly bought Classic Vibe Precision. All I can say is a big YEAAAH! This is the sound I was looking for in a precision. Deep fat, yet articulate tone with plenty of mids. Can't wait to try it with the rest of the band, but I'm pretty sure it will cut trough the mix well. I haven't used flats since my early days of playing some 20 years ago. Back then, I liked the sharp sound of steels better, but nowadays those flats would stay with my precision. My MIJ JB will still be wearing rounds though.
Just a question. What you guys, with a lot more experience with flats, would say about their life? I know that they are longer lasting than RW's, but how much of a tone change I can expect over time, and what is the recommended frequeny of changing them, considering that I play, on average about 1.5-2 hours per day?
Just a question. What you guys, with a lot more experience with flats, would say about their life? I know that they are longer lasting than RW's, but how much of a tone change I can expect over time, and what is the recommended frequeny of changing them, considering that I play, on average about 1.5-2 hours per day?
Hi Guys and gals,
A lot to soak up in this thread - can't agree more about how recordings are done, as stated above.
In a recent recording I was part of , the engineer said the easiest way to EQ the band was to mid-scoop EVERY instrument. Took me by surprise, but he said it was just easier.......(and quicker I'll bet
)
Needless to say - the bass and guitar both ended up sounding *average* when playing alone.
Got a question I hope you guru's might be able to answer.
I love flats - got my P dressed with 'em right now, but the tension just isn't right. I'm using Roto Steve Harris flats.
I tune to C, F, A#, D# (and have only tuned that way for 10+ years)
All the strings sound and feel great apart from the low C, which is just a little loose.
What should I do?
Any single FLAT strings I should try?
A lot to soak up in this thread - can't agree more about how recordings are done, as stated above.
In a recent recording I was part of , the engineer said the easiest way to EQ the band was to mid-scoop EVERY instrument. Took me by surprise, but he said it was just easier.......(and quicker I'll bet
)Needless to say - the bass and guitar both ended up sounding *average* when playing alone.
Got a question I hope you guru's might be able to answer.
I love flats - got my P dressed with 'em right now, but the tension just isn't right. I'm using Roto Steve Harris flats.
I tune to C, F, A#, D# (and have only tuned that way for 10+ years)
All the strings sound and feel great apart from the low C, which is just a little loose.
What should I do?
Any single FLAT strings I should try?
For my gig last night I thought I'd put on a set of rounds. Using the same bass, same rig and playing in one of the boomiest rooms I ever play in, I wondered if perhaps my love for flats was just a perception rather than reality.
Combined with the fact that many lately have mentioned that they use rounds specifically in boomy rooms and I've played this room many times with flats, the results were not surprising really, though I thought it was very telling.
Rounds suck. If there is one word to describe how rounds sound TO ME, specifically in boomy rooms, that word is...SUCK.
There was no distinction of notes...it was all just a muddy mess of bloom, boom and it sounded like I may have well as strung my bass with rubber bands and turned all my mids and highs completely off. And no amount of EQ'ing made a damn bit of difference. Bleh. I had probably the most terrible, least enjoyable night of playing in I don't know how long. I contemplated switching back to my flats after only the first set, but I was bound and determined to give the rounds a fair shot and struggle with EQ'ing the rest of the night.
I have to admit, switching to a pick and just cranking my amp and pounding the crap out of the rounds did give me certain, grindy hardcore Chris Squire sizzle that was somewhat satisfying. Although I don't really think it was appropriate for the songs I ended up playing that way (actually it was totally inappropriate, yet by then I was so utterly disgusted that subconsciously I think I was trying to break all five of my roundwounds). Unfortunately they didn't.
They are coming off today and my Chromes are going back on. Whew, what a relief!
OK, go ahead and tell me I just don't know how to EQ for rounds or my technique is flawed, or it was just the room, etc. Yeah right. Rounds really do suck and it will be a cold day in hell before I switch back to them again.
Combined with the fact that many lately have mentioned that they use rounds specifically in boomy rooms and I've played this room many times with flats, the results were not surprising really, though I thought it was very telling.
Rounds suck. If there is one word to describe how rounds sound TO ME, specifically in boomy rooms, that word is...SUCK.
There was no distinction of notes...it was all just a muddy mess of bloom, boom and it sounded like I may have well as strung my bass with rubber bands and turned all my mids and highs completely off. And no amount of EQ'ing made a damn bit of difference. Bleh. I had probably the most terrible, least enjoyable night of playing in I don't know how long. I contemplated switching back to my flats after only the first set, but I was bound and determined to give the rounds a fair shot and struggle with EQ'ing the rest of the night.
I have to admit, switching to a pick and just cranking my amp and pounding the crap out of the rounds did give me certain, grindy hardcore Chris Squire sizzle that was somewhat satisfying. Although I don't really think it was appropriate for the songs I ended up playing that way (actually it was totally inappropriate, yet by then I was so utterly disgusted that subconsciously I think I was trying to break all five of my roundwounds). Unfortunately they didn't.
They are coming off today and my Chromes are going back on. Whew, what a relief!
OK, go ahead and tell me I just don't know how to EQ for rounds or my technique is flawed, or it was just the room, etc. Yeah right. Rounds really do suck and it will be a cold day in hell before I switch back to them again.
I went into the studio and started whining about forgetting foam for my bass (rounds on it). The band was just saying get over it, the engineer on the other hand was really digging I wanted foam and came up with some. All that top end in a band situation bugs me. At home high end freqs may be fine, but flats all the way for me now.
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