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Confused about DI

basso_profundo

basso_profundo

Mar 12, 2012
250
306
Denver, CO
#1
Hiya,

I have a passive Fender PBass and a Genz Benz Contour 500. Up until recently, I would plug the bass into the amp, volume level set with the other players, and all was good. However, my band just acquired a great PA system with monitor and front facing speakers each with their own power amps, a sweet mixing board with XLR inputs, a 31 band EQ, etc. So, I have been using the DI output on the Contour 500 as an input to a channel on the board. After two rehearsals, it sounds pretty damn fine.

However, I was reading the amp's manual today and noticed that it said the DI output is pre-EQ. Which I think means my careful EQ tweaking on the amp is not going to the PA, so the PA is just getting basically a raw signal from the bass - I don't use any pedals.

So my questions are:

- What is the role of the amp's speaker if the DI signal is going to the PA?
- Should I mic the amp instead of using DI->PA in order to get the EQ'd sound?

Any thoughts or comments are appreciated!
 
#2
So it sounds fine but you are not happy.:confused: FWIW I always send a pre signal from my Amps even though I have the option to do post if I want. The amps speaker is basically your on stage monitor. You could try micing it to see if it is better.
 
#3
getting a good miced sound in a live situation is difficult when taking into consideration any benefits micing may bring. transformer sag, for example (after amp pre), won't actually be heard live, as well as it would be, in a studio recording situation...so to answer your questions, i need to ask some questions back; is there a reason to replicate a studio grade signal to the board...and how much do are you willing to spend on that signal?
 
#4
this is just my opinion - in some rooms, you are just adding a little to it - and its easy to get obsessed over "your" sound. if you are genuinely concerned - and need to be that much in control - a sansamp or similar may be better or micing.

I personally trust my sound out to the board - from shuttle or pf500 and then it is adjusted there. It almost always sounds like a bass to me. I have used a wireless to go out front and confirmed it....... Yep.....Bass
 
#5
Thanks for the replies, very much appreciated!

Yes, it sounds great DI->PA, but it is different than the usual sound. We are talking about a plain ol' P-Bass with flats, so not a lot of sonic nuance going on - thump thump;) I don't overdrive the signal, so a good solid clean sound all the way through is perfect.

I'm not concerned with replicating the EQ'd sound and would rather do the best thing for listeners, but I wanted to check with folks who have more experience to see if there are some common sense things I'm missing. Sounds like I'm not, so that's good. And I don't want to deal with a mic or have a bunch of gear to muck with, I really like simplicity. Using fingers and technique to sculpt the tone is what I'm about. Bass out->Amp In->Amp DI Out->PA is super easy and rock solid. Letting the board mix the sound makes sense as well, they can figure out how to make it sound good together.

So thanks again! TalkBass rules!
 
#6
The amp EQ choices you make are ALL about getting that particular amp to sound like you need it to on a given stage, working with (or against) the other band members's decisions.
All kinds of wild EQ-ing might be needed at times.

Pre-EQ DIs let you do whatever you need to do onstage without worrying about sending a messed-up signal to FOH.
The EQ section on your mixer is probably better suited to translating the signal you're sending to the speakers and room than what's on your amp, anyway.
IF you used pedals the way you're running would obviously still work well.

Carry on like you are and don't worry about it.
 
#7
you mean your amp doesn't have a pre/post switch? What brand is it? I would've thought all amps had this switch,my MarkBass and Hartke amps both have em.

If you have a good sound guy, trust them with your sound. Or, get a wireless unit and stand next to him when he soundchecks you,freaks em out hehe
 
#8
From experience, I can tell you that your backline EQ does not always translate well to FOH...it can be a sound guy's worst nightmare. Even a simple 3 band EQ (with sweepable mids, of course) found on most common mic channels is adequate for sweetening your tone.

Riis
 
#9
basso_profundo said:
However, I was reading the amp's manual today and noticed that it said the DI output is pre-EQ. Which I think means my careful EQ tweaking on the amp is not going to the PA, so the PA is just getting basically a raw signal from the bass - I don't use any pedals.
Click to expand...
It's not, and most decent sound guys don't want your EQ'd tone being fed to them.. they want a pre-EQ signal going DI.

Why? It gives them control over the FOH mix, so they are not trying to add/remove frequencies you've already tweaked in or out!

So-o-o many musicians don't get (and has been commented on above) that their stage "sound" doesn't necessarily translate well to a PA/FOH mix. That's why the FOH guys want that level of control. I'm not going down the crappy house sound guys path here... we ALL know they exist..

Plus, I know GeriO will get on my case for saying this :)..
but I have run sound for local bands for much longer than I've been playing.. so... with that hat on, there has to be a level of trust between the band and FOH. Even if the band runs sound themselves, one needs to get off the stage and listen to the FOH mix during sound check (and not worry about the stage sound so much) because mostly the audience SHOULD HEAR the PA, NOT the backline.. that's what PA's are for!!

IMHO - Send FOH the pre-EQ mix and give them the control to blend it.
For bands with amps, it's the combination of backline and FOH mix that makes the sound out front. The FOH guy controls that blend. You need to help!
 
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#10
s0c9 said:
It's not, and most decent sound guys don't want your EQ'd tone being fed to them.. they want a pre-EQ signal going DI.

Why? It gives them control over the FOH mix, so they are not trying to add/remove frequencies you've already tweaked in or out!

So-o-o many musicians don't get (and has been commented on above) that their stage "sound" doesn't necessarily translate well to a PA/FOH mix. That's why the FOH guys want that level of control. I'm not going down the crappy house sound guys path here... we ALL know they exist..

Plus, I know GeriO will get on my case for saying this :)..
but I have run sound for local bands for much longer than I've been playing.. so... with that hat on, there has to be a level of trust between the band and FOH. Even if the band runs sound themselves, one needs to get off the stage and listen to the FOH mix during sound check (and not worry about the stage sound so much) because mostly the audience SHOULD HEAR the PA, NOT the backline.. that's what PA's are for!!

IMHO - Send FOH the pre-EQ mix and give them the control to blend it.
For bands with amps, it's the combination of backline and FOH mix that makes the sound out front. The FOH guy controls that blend. You need to help!
Click to expand...

On the contrary, my friend, you couldn't be more spot on! Bad juju happens with a lot of backline volume tangles up with the PA. Even to the point of drum shields. but I do NOT press the case on drum shields. They solve one problem, but the reflections from the drums bouncing around on the shield makes the drums sound hollow. Not to mention the isolated feeling it gives the drummers.

You've nailed the situation with this post, no doubt, These days, I'm doing a lot of hiking back and forth to check the mix when we play in a small place with no sound man. Fortunately, I'm blessed to be with players that are awesome about mixing themselves (laying back on rhythm parts and the vocal melody, turning up for their solos, singing out when leading, singing back when doing harmonies, etc).

I was just wondering if the OP realized that the mixing console has as good as or better (depending on the console, of course) than the EQ on the bass amp.
 
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#11
Geri O said:
I was just wondering if the OP realized that the mixing console has as good as or better (depending on the console, of course) than the EQ on the bass amp.
Click to expand...

Have to admit, that's a relatively new concept for me. But if what I'm hearing through the monitors is as good as what the audience is hearing, I'm a believer!

Like I said, I've never worked on a regular basis with a 'big boy' PA system. I've played a bunch one-off shows on larger stages where I've just let the sound engineer do their thing, but never been in a band with it's own decent sound setup.

Someone else on the thread asked about the amp - it's a Genz Benz Contour 500 with no pre/post switch for the DI.
 
#13
ggunn said:
On most FOH boards I have seen, the channel EQ does not affect the monitor sends.
Click to expand...

Which is how it should be. I was speaking in the context of the house sound, not monitors.

On a surprising bunch of digital consoles I've been on lately (including my X32), you can pick the send point in the channel. Nearly all of them are set to post-EQ and pre fader by default. I've asked the band guys which way they like it better and they don't seem to care one way or the other. So I leave it post-EQ/pre-fader, hoping the ears will somewhat reflect the EQ-ing taking place on the house sound. It doesn't bother me either way, nor does that seem to matter to anyone.
 
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#14
Geri O said:
On a surprising bunch of digital consoles I've been on lately (including my X32), you can pick the send point in the channel. Nearly all of them are set to post-EQ and pre fader by default. I've asked the band guys which way they like it better and they don't seem to care one way or the other. So I leave it post-EQ/pre-fader, hoping the ears will somewhat reflect the EQ-ing taking place on the house sound. It doesn't bother me either way, nor does that seem to matter to anyone.
Click to expand...
and thankfully, most (if not all) have had the presence of mind to build loop prevention into their firmware... to stop folks accidentally creating a routing/patch loop... on the X32 that could be a PITA to find - given all its routing capabilities!
 
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#16
Geri O said:
Indeed! Didn't see that possibility coming at all!
Click to expand...
I raised it because some of the large consoles don't... I watch a FOH guy on a Midas PRO2C do just that - while playing with effects. I was just about to point out that he had created a loop (he'd being doing it while we talked) and BWAAANNNGGGGG .. horrible sound out of the 20,000w PA.
He killed it VERY quickly, but ouch!
That was at the now closed Toby Keith's in Dallas, back in 2012.

BIG PA system!! Each one of those black squares covered dual 18" subs..
Stage was concrete/wood and had some weird rumbles on it.

Toby_20Keith_20Restaurant_20-_2011002.0.jpg


Here's a closer look at the stage from bottom right of the above pic. That's me in the black shirt, left of pedal steel.
836880-l.jpg


This is a pic the console in Rosemont, IL... similar to Dallas setup - minus the support pillar in front of the desk .. :roflmao:

Invalid Link Removed
 
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#19
TimmyP said:
The amp EQ needed for your rig will never be what's needed for the PA. Pre EQ is the way to go. If the DI is post, the mixperson has to counteract the amp's EQ, often leaving him/her unable to optimize the tone of the bass.
Click to expand...
If the sOund engineer has to turn knobs to get a good sound, wouldn't he be better off starTing closer to the sound I would like than further? If you only boost or cut 5-6 db on any given frequency, how Much harm is there?
 
#20
JimiLL said:
If the sOund engineer has to turn knobs to get a good sound, wouldn't he be better off starTing closer to the sound I would like than further? If you only boost or cut 5-6 db on any given frequency, how Much harm is there?
Click to expand...
It depends on venue size and other factors, but it's generally a no! What you hear on stage and what works for the "venue" mix, are seldom the same EQ settings..

One should try to cut (not boost) EQ frequencies, as boosting effectively adds something that is not in the original signal.
 
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