Yes, I do suggest we forget serialism. It is of zero value to the vast majority of people learning to play bass.
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Connecting Scales and Chords
- Thread starter Matt Till
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Yes, I do suggest we forget serialism. It is of zero value to the vast majority of people learning to play bass.
Not everyone makes guitars or tunes them to standard. Hence why we have things like chapman sticks and extended range basses and guitars. Do you think Schoenberg was worried about playing by the rules, or Ornette Coleman, or George Russel? Fine you can keep your rules and let them be your limitations. Don't expect them to be mine.
You're barking up the wrong tree if you think I was being condescending. I'm genuinely interested in your response.
Rather than going off in a huff, why don't you explain to us what value you think abandoning conventional musical theory and nomenclature is for bass players, particularly those who play popular music styles.
What do you think serialism has to offer the average rock or jazz musician, and what advantage would it be for them to abandon diatonic harmony? I note you've said you have bass (?) students... this must be something you've explored in the past...
I understand how chords are formed from the scale and am in the process of learning to play them. What I dont get is. Say the dominant chord, if I was to play a scale over it would be a major and a Mixolidain (mixo because its the 5th). and would that apply to other scale degrees e.g playing dorian over a minor 7th?
I'm just not sure how to apply scales to chords. Most of the time I dont and go by feel but ot would be intersting to know for improv purposes
I'm just not sure how to apply scales to chords. Most of the time I dont and go by feel but ot would be intersting to know for improv purposes
Most of the time, when you play through a chord progression, you're not really playing modally. But using the modes is a way to get your head around how the changes should sound.
If you're playing a ii-V-I in G major for instance, and you stay in key, playing A dorian, D mixolydian, G ionian, what you're really doing is just playing in G major.
Learning to play the mode per chord method is a more of a short cut to learn how the strong notes are changing with the chords, even though the overall scale is not. It's a great thing to learn then forget.
To answer your question, a m7 would conventionally equal dorian if it was the ii. You'd use phrygian if it was the iii and aeolian if it was the vi.
Where it gets interesting is when you want to add tension by changing to a different scale on the V.
A dominant chord could be attached to a lot of different scales. In terms of the Major scale it will be attached to the relative Mixolydian. However it could be attached to the 5th mode of Harmonic Minor or Melodic Minor. The main importance of the dominant is that it has a tendency to want to resolve to the tonal centre.
As far as applying scales to chords this is largely open to interpretation. In Lydian Dominant Theory a system of appropriate scales can be related to any given chord. Determining the scale that relates to any one chord is a matter of interpretation, for example a minor7 chord could be attached not only to phrygian, dorian, or aeolian it could be attached to any number of non-diatonic scales that has the tertian 7th chord [1,b3,5,b7] attached to it.
It becomes less ambiguos when you have more than one chord in a progression to go by, but even then there is no reason why you can't have a progression like i7 - V7
where the i7 implies a natural minor but the V7 is a doiminant which implies harmonic minor.
I don't know if this will remedy your confusion any.
Both commments help lots, thanks. Though there is still the problem of applying this to learning. When you are practicing how do you practice this. I practice seperatley, modes then chord tones but I dont really apply them together and cannot understand the relationship its hard to hear the chord or scale in your head whilst playing the other, comprende?
The chord tones are a subset of the modes that accompany them. They're essentially the notes that sound good on the strong beats.
Try mixing them up. Go up the chord tones and down the scale and vice-versa. Go half way up the chord tones, then the rest of the way up the scale, etc.
Up dominant chord tones, down mixolydian:
1, 3, 5, b7, 9, 8, b7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1
Up dorian, down m7:
1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7, 8, 9, b7, 5, b3, 1
etc.
Remember, it's an exercise to allow you to hear the music better rather than music in itself.
IMO they are only rules if you treat them that way. They are an analysis of what has been done, a label for reference, and I prefer to view guidelines or starting points. IMO if we treated theory as rules we wouldn't have all he advances in music over the centurys. All the greats were pushing the envelope for their time. So we listen to the past for things we like, we use theory to analizye/learn/remember what they were doing, then finding our own way to use the sound.
As I've said I worked in a music school for years and have attended a couple other schools. So I've seen too many get hung up in the "rules" or feel all they need to do is follow the rules. So that is why I say learn the rules, but then let go and play. A Taoist thing a balance or old and new.
http://www.cyberschoolofbass.com/ helped solidify some of the basics that were escaping me. I have this thread favorited, that's a first for me.
CHKYO here. The F natural is correct in a G7 because, the 7 is a "flat" 7th and not a natural 7th in this case as you indicated as F#. In any dominant 7th, the 7th is a flat 7th. In G Maj, the F# is naturally sharp, so in order to make it a dominant 7th chord as in your example, G7, you need to make it a flat seventh. Therefore, the F# now becomes flat by one half step turning it into "F". On any dominant 7th chord, the 7 is a "flat 7".
Hope this helps.
CHKYO.
Hope this helps.
CHKYO.
The "F" is correct because the G7 chord implies the key of C, not G. Even with a piece of music in "G" a G7 chord (I7) would signal a momentary modulation to the key of C, or at least a move the subdominat chord (in G major). You'll hear this everyday in 'Blues' progressions.
In traditional functional harmony, a G7 in G major would yes, be the V/IV, but in blues harmony its static, and is simply I7. Its purely a tonic chord, and doesn't signal any harmonic motion. Even in music which isn't 12-bar blues, this can be the case, such as in the tunes "Goodbye Porkpie Hat", "Gee Baby, Ain't I Good To You", and "Is you is or is you ain't ma baby". Very often the I chord in songs like these is a dominant seventh, and it doesn't have any expected resolution except to itself.
