Conversations with FOH guys..

[Old Ozzie Guy]

Hi all, lately I find myself at FHO desk, chatting with operator's. "Back in my day..ECT". Long long ago, at venues far far away, I spent a few years with production Co, doing FOH, and to the side of stage , mixing Foldback (told U it was long ago)
Anyway, I will share a few similar conversations with different operators, Iv had recently.
Being either side of stage or behind, I couldn't help noticing how other bands bass players stage sound, was nothing like what was coming out of FOH . Not a few bass players , I mean lots.When I asked at desk, the common reply was that there stage sound was "unusable" for foh. "Di as early in chain as possible & don't tell" Most common problems Hi Fi type eq ECT..Solo slap tones ECT. Sounds great at home, but don't these guys rehearse with their bands?Admittedly,these gigs have not been in major cities, smallish venues, most 300 to 500 hd.
Really of 2 minds regarding bringing this up, but, hey cranky old farts are expected to whinge , be reminiscent ECT. IV sorta found it amusing. .

 

[Old Ozzie Guy]

Hi all, lately I find myself at FHO desk, chatting with operator's. "Back in my day..ECT". Long long ago, at venues far far away, I spent a few years with production Co, doing FOH, and to the side of stage , mixing Foldback (told U it was long ago)
Anyway, I will share a few similar conversations with different operators, Iv had recently.
Being either side of stage or behind, I couldn't help noticing how other bands bass players stage sound, was nothing like what was coming out of FOH . Not a few bass players , I mean lots.When I asked at desk, the common reply was that there stage sound was "unusable" for foh. "Di as early in chain as possible & don't tell U only going to use clean" Most common problems Hi Fi type eq ECT..Solo slap tones ECT. Sounds great at home, but don't these guys rehearse with their bands?Admittedly,these gigs have not been in major cities, smallish venues, most 300 to 500 hd.
Really of 2 minds regarding bringing this up, but, hey cranky old farts are expected to whinge , be reminiscent ECT. IV sorta found it amusing. .

 

[Old Ozzie Guy]

Don't know how to edit the above..
I ment to add , Di as early in chain as possible and don't tell"U only going to use the clean" (re eq'd).

 

[_Some Dude]

I find a lot of bassists have a "felt but not heard" tone with zero articulation.

One guy that stood out to me could only be heard in the bottom 5 frets. As he went up higher he disappeared, which I assumed was due to lack of mids.

 

[s0c9]

I find a lot of bassists have a "felt but not heard" tone with zero articulation.

One guy that stood out to me could only be heard in the bottom 5 frets. As he went up higher he disappeared, which I assumed was due to lack of mids.

This is the typically classic thread on that similar topic.
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/eq-going-to-the-sound-system.1625661/

 

[jimmydean]

I never complain since I never know how it really sounds in the room , I just take the word of the sax player .

 

[Mastermold]

I never complain since I never know how it really sounds in the room , I just take the word of the sax player .

Our manager walks the room during sound check and lets us know (and the soundman know) what needs what.

 

[Old Ozzie Guy]

I find a lot of bassists have a "felt but not heard" tone with zero articulation.

One guy that stood out to me could only be heard in the bottom 5 frets. As he went up higher he disappeared, which I assumed was due to lack of mids.

I believe "super smiley face" eq , may sound "epic" solo... But, as U mentioned, lack of mid-range, while competing with other instruments ..
results with punters wondering "is the bass amp turned on?"

 

[Killing Floor]

Some sound techs are pro and some are not. Bottom line is if house sound treated guitar like they treat bass they'd be fired by the end of the week. Sometimes that "unusable" sound is critical to the song. Tell them "Use a compressor and don't be a jerk."
But say it nicer so they don't sabotage.
Or use a pedal board and send the signal where you want it.

 

[Old Ozzie Guy]

After reading the "thread" mentioned above, I have to admit that I like to look after 90%of my sound production myself, leaving foh to put me ,and the band "in the room".
So far, FOH guys are really happy with what I feed. . So far...

 

[Old Ozzie Guy]

I should add, I use 2 different hpf's
( thump+ Boughton), a DG SS compressor, and "sensible" EQ..

 

[Jrussblues]

Yeah…sound guys are lazy with bass. Been that way for years.

 

[Wasnex]

Bottom line is if house sound treated guitar like they treat bass they'd be fired by the end of the week.

Bass and guitar pose a different set off problems.

I don't hesitate to ask a guitarist to turn down or make tone adjustments if they are causing a problem or their sound is not working well. I also have been known to chide guitarists for turning up mid-show.

Bass is frequently too loud...but it's not always the bassists fault. Often the problem is because other band members want too much bass in their monitor. But let's be honest, some bassists are always too loud.

Group leader calls the shots. If they complain that the bass doesn't sound good, I demonstrate that the monitors are the problem and give them a choice. More often than not, they choose crappy bass over turning the bass down in the monitors.

 

[Wasnex]

Yeah…sound guys are lazy with bass. Been that way for years.

Perhaps you should run sound yourself. Then you can spend the entire show fiddling with the bass, only to realize it doesn't matter what you do, because the musicians' choices have made it impossible for you to actually make the bass sound good.

FYI, I do spend a fair amount of time dialing in the bass, but it's not done with the bassist playing by him/herself. It's done in the context of the mix. If I can actually make a difference, I will continually make adjustments for the duration of the show.

However, I have mixed plenty of shows where I didn't have any control over the bass because there was way too much low end coming off the stage. When that occurs, I take an incremental approach: 1. pull the bass out of the subs, 2. adjust the HPF higher, and 3. push the channel fader all the way down.

 

[HolmeBass]

I find a lot of bassists have a "felt but not heard" tone with zero articulation.

One guy that stood out to me could only be heard in the bottom 5 frets. As he went up higher he disappeared, which I assumed was due to lack of mids.

Right... but was that his stage sound, or his FOH sound?

I've never mixed. But as a player, I have learned to just keep my mouth shut, for the most part, and roll with it. I do work mostly with competent, delightful sound crew who basically let me do my thing and evidently, by all accounts, make me sound great out front.

But not all. Like this conversation, paraphrasing after the line he sent me from the PA made a horrible buzz. When I pointed out the cable had a repair with desiccated duct tape wrapped around it... nah, he said that couldn't be it.

So he says he'll mic the bass rig. I say, kind of reluctantly, ok. Then he confides that he cuts the lows out of the bass and the highs to keeps just the midrange punch - something about the kick below and the guitars above.

Then I remember him telling me earlier about his brother who is successful in an up-and-coming metal band, and that he's a metal drummer. I don't know how I sounded out front - but from behind the PA it sounded pretty loud, so I can't complain too much.

Just to note, we are definitely not a metal band.

 

[buldog5151bass]

I always try to chat up the guy, ask if I can help with anything, etc. Be the person he WANTS to make sound good.

 

[Killing Floor]

Bass and guitar pose a different set off problems.

I don't hesitate to ask a guitarist to turn down or make tone adjustments if they are causing a problem or their sound is not working well. I also have been known to chide guitarists for turning up mid-show.

Bass is frequently too loud...but it's not always the bassists fault. Often the problem is because other band members want too much bass in their monitor. But let's be honest, some bassists are always too loud.

Group leader calls the shots. If they complain that the bass doesn't sound good, I demonstrate that the monitors are the problem and give them a choice. More often than not, they choose crappy bass over turning the bass down in the monitors.

Totally get that. But what I'm saying is a sound engineer wound Never insist on a DI from a clean guitar signal. They'd never even ask. No sound tech would force a guitar player to send a different sound to FOH than is critical to the structure of their songs.
Take this how you please, but the notion that a mic on an amp or a processed bass signal can't be used is usually just a lazy attitude. If overdrive or delay or some other processing is part of the song it shouldn't be up to the board mixer to decide. But yes a BL should take that position.

 

[Five or Six]

I don't hesitate to ask a guitarist to turn down or make tone adjustments if they are causing a problem or their sound is not working well. I also have been known to chide guitarists for turning up mid-show

I run sound for my band and also for others. Most guitar players want to rule the roost. When you tell them to come down, they look gut shot! Bass balance can be troublesome if the bass player isn't cooperative. I wont bogart his sound. I'd rather mix lousy sound them dump it out.

 

[Wasnex]

Totally get that. But what I'm saying is a sound engineer wound Never insist on a DI from a clean guitar signal. They'd never even ask. No sound tech would force a guitar player to send a different sound to FOH than is critical to the structure if their songs.
Take this how you please, but the notion that a mic on an amp or a processed bass signal can't be used is usually just a lazy attitude. If overdrive or delay or some other processing is part of the song it shouldn't be up to the board mixer to decide. But yes a BL should take that position.

Most of the time I prefer the DI between the bass and amp. But as you have shown, that is not always the right approach.

I prefer to mic a bass cab over a post EQ DI.

Rather than lazy, I think using a pre EQ DI is more of a control issue. Audio techs have to deal with a bunch of issues simultaneously. Using their old faithful DI on the bass gives them a more consistent signal that is easier for them to understand and massage into a usable form. In other words, it's a way of avoiding the uncertainty and potential problems that occurs when another approach is used. IMHO trying something else is perceived as high-risk, low-reward.

Believe it or not, it's very difficult to get the bass to sound good live, and typically way easier to dial in guitar and it has little to do with mic VS DI. Because getting a good bass sound is such a challenge, there is less willingness to take risks that could potentially make it even harder. Also there is a higher likelihood that the audio tech will simply say "F--- it" if it seems impossible to make the bass sound good. Rather than wasting a lot of time on something you can't fix, you tend to focus on other priorities where you can make a difference. That doesn't mean we like crappy bass.

 

[_Some Dude]

Right... but was that his stage sound, or his FOH sound?

I suspect it was both. I felt like it was a mix of dead strings and possibly him rolling off tone.

I've been mixed by a couple of their soundmen and it's always sounded good. I get both a mic and a DI. Their main soundman is a bassist, so it's been drama free.

Someone on here told me years ago why I should send plenty of highs, and I seem to always get pretty good mixes.