Conversations with FOH guys..

[Mike Caldwell]

Agreed

Personaly , and it's a question of taste and often style of music and sub efficiency , I find it easier/more natural to "slot" the kick in the 25/50 region and the bass in the low mids.(80/300) The leak from the bass monitor on stage is always in low mid , I find myself Fighting less "against" it at FOH me thinks. Bass monitors in general do a super bad job in the lower octave , they are all LowMids ++++ , specially 8X10
When I face a Precision / Flat / LPF tone ( Mud fest ) I try to boost the mids so we can perceive some sort of Note but most of the time to no avail.
I should take pics of some bass channel EQ I do sometimes ......

YMMV , IMHO , IME , etc....

I assume your 25/50 is hz, very few subs even get close to an actual 25hz....with any output level before blowing up.

 

[BassGuyFL]

Those were by far the best shows to mix - When you don't have to "fix" instruments to make them sound good. Sometimes I'd get compliments on a mix and I'd say "That's them, I'm just making it louder" . Other times it takes much more work. This is also a compelling reason to have your own sound person if you can afford it: They will know your sound and your goals much more than someone you don't know.

As a guest tech for a band I had a few solid tricks up my sleeve to make "my" band stand out. One was to ditch the super hyped kick drum EQ that the previous tech spent half the previous set constructing and get back to something sold and supporting the mix without excess. The other was to drop the overall mix level down a notch if the previous act was loud. You could see the crowd come closer to the stage again and kinda ease their body language.

Like I do sound and audio too so I'm aware of things like gain-staging and EQ. With my other rig I have a pedalboard and I've had more than one sound guy wince when he sees it, and I have to reassure them no man everything is leveled out and buzz free and trust me it'll be fine. And I can understand their apprehension they've dealt with some nightmares in the past.

 

[Old Ozzie Guy]

I use cut primarily at FOH, but not exclusively.

I think what U guys been talking about, is so "over the head", of 90%of muso's. Most players don't realise that U can boost mids , with 2way shelving eq , via negative eq'ing.
A few have commented on lack of basic production techniques, I believe it's really a case of musicians "not knowing, they don't know".

 

[brianrost]

Wow, the first thread on this subject this week

 

[Stylee Mousse]

The club I mixed at for the longest hosted lots of smaller touring bands, either ascending the biz or the opposite. I was surprised how many were apprehensive about how the sound guy would perform and, worse, behave. It wouldn't take me long to introduce myself, ask some useful questions about their setup and start to demonstrate that I was there to make the show be as good as possible. Super simple human stuff that I definitely appreciated whenever I encountered it from the playing side.

some gave the not impressive PA side eye but typically once they heard the properly EQ'd and well powered rig in action they usually got it. Another thing, our room was kinda mid sized and soft acoustically- so for lots of players it felt like a nice jam space. Your amp sounded like your amp at home in there. If some asked how loud to play I'd say "just do what you do at rehearsal"

I was lucky that I came up in an era where we had to do a lot of the tech ourselves so we learned to run sound because lotsa times no one else would or could. But I'd say as a player you don't need to know how the sausage is made to do your part.

 

[Old Ozzie Guy]

The club I mixed at for the longest hosted lots of smaller touring bands, either ascending the biz or the opposite. I was surprised how many were apprehensive about how the sound guy would perform and, worse, behave. It wouldn't take me long to introduce myself, ask some useful questions about their setup and start to demonstrate that I was there to make the show be as good as possible. Super simple human stuff that I definitely appreciated whenever I encountered it from the playing side.

some gave the not impressive PA side eye but typically once they heard the properly EQ'd and well powered rig in action they usually got it. Another thing, our room was kinda mid sized and soft acoustically- so for lots of players it felt like a nice jam space. Your amp sounded like your amp at home in there. If some asked how loud to play I'd say "just do what you do at rehearsal"

I was lucky that I came up in an era where we had to do a lot of the tech ourselves so we learned to run sound because lotsa times no one else would or could. But I'd say as a player you don't need to know how the sausage is made to do your part.

I sorta chuckled to myself regarding what older band players did /learnt ECT. IV tried my hand at alot of associated crafts.. mainly out of poverty!! I built (badly) an old school 3 way(.PA).. I'm no carpenter, and the single 15 W's , and 12" J mids, really showed !, trial and mainly error!!
Lead guitarist's were recording produces , each band put someone fwd to mix the other bands, on the bill..ECT.. Not really good old days, but we did expand our knowledge..

 

[fokof]

I assume your 25/50 is hz, very few subs even get close to an actual 25hz....with any output level before blowing up.

I have two SB28 at work , they are -10 @25hz
Your right , I should have written 35/60 instead of 25/50

 

[lokikallas]

They can take my DI out of the amp and be happy with it. If not then a mic is fine too. It's up to them to try to fit that in a mix. I'm not using much, but I deserve as much respect as the guitars.

 

[Mike Caldwell]

I have two SB28 at work , they are -10 @25hz
Your right , I should have written 35/60 instead of 25/50

Those are real subs though!

 

[musicman7722]

They can take my DI out of the amp and be happy with it. If not then a mic is fine too. It's up to them to try to fit that in a mix. I'm not using much, but I deserve as much respect as the guitars.

You obviously haven't understood the physics of this. With this attitude you may unintentionally send him the suck knob setting.

 

[lokikallas]

You obviously haven't understood the physics of this. With this attitude you may unintentionally send him the suck knob setting.

I understand the physics. In fact I have a college degree in the subject. I don't understand why FOH guys get to put bass as a low priority when it comes to the time spent getting good FOH tone. If they spend 5 minutes getting the kick to sound like thors hammer, then I can get at least 2 minutes to run through my presets.

 

[Stylee Mousse]

From my POV as a player I want to give FOH as complete and correct a signal as possible to minimize problems. I use a few pedals and rely on some overdrive from my amp. So I strongly prefer mics on my stuff.
As FOH I personally have no problem with a player's setup - just like a synth player I'll say "do the loudest and lowest thing you do" if there is time for a soundcheck. Bass deserves as much attention as any other instrument and the better a thing you send the more likely the result will be good.

I like the "suck knob" joke but from experience most FOH want to do a good job. I know I did. Here's one for ya: Pitchy singers. Do you try to minimize their damage by burying them in the mix? NOPE. I don't want people coming up to me saying "I can't hear Muffy sing!" So if she (or anyone else in the band) sux it's on them.

Back to bass though, If you have, for example, crazy volume and tonal swings with presets that really skew the mix and/or suddenly drive the PA into clipping I'm going to aggressively limit the channel. Like I would do for a mic cupper or a "all red lights on my mixer" DJ. With Love, of course!

 

[Egg250]

I find a lot of bassists have a "felt but not heard" tone with zero articulation.

One guy that stood out to me could only be heard in the bottom 5 frets. As he went up higher he disappeared, which I assumed was due to lack of mids.

I watched this youtube video, this sound guy dialed in a killer bass tone. Then proceeded to take a deep scoop out if the mids. Then he ran a stereo channel, added some distortion and some of the mids back, winding up with an approximation of what he started with before he scooped the mids, just not as good. A lot of effort for something not as good. Opinions on tone (like all other opinions) are just that. Too many sound techs follow what they have been taught, scoop the mids, because that's what "everybody" does. I totally disagree with the "bass should be felt, not heard" crowd too. I lost my train of thought, but, yeah....

 

[Wasnex]

I understand the physics. In fact I have a college degree in the subject. I don't understand why FOH guys get to put bass as a low priority when it comes to the time spent getting good FOH tone. If they spend 5 minutes getting the kick to sound like thors hammer, then I can get at least 2 minutes to run through my presets.

Most of the time the bass uses one basic sound, and IMHO all that is required is a basic line check to set levels and get a basic sound. Might take 15-30 seconds. However, I will work on fine-tuning the tone while the entire band is playing...so I spend way more than 30 seconds on the bass, but bass player probably won't be aware that I am working on his/her sound

If you have a range of presets, I agree they should be checked. Not necessarily all of them and not one after an another during your line check, because that does not tell me how they will work in the mix. Instead I think problematic presets should be checked in context. To do this, the band jumps around their set list and plays short snippets of songs where the presets are used. This is so I can hear and adjust the presets in context.

In my experience, many bands don't want to do much beyond a line check, so I wind up dialing in the system during the first couple of songs.

 

[Wasnex]

I watched this youtube video, this sound guy dialed in a killer bass tone. Then proceeded to take a deep scoop out if the mids. Then he ran a stereo channel, added some distortion and some of the mids back, winding up with an approximation of what he started with before he scooped the mids, just not as good. A lot of effort for something not as good. Opinions on tone (like all other opinions) are just that. Too many sound techs follow what they have been taught, scoop the mids, because that's what "everybody" does. I totally disagree with the "bass should be felt, not heard" crowd too. I lost my train of thought, but, yeah....

To do it right is a little more complicated than simply scooping the mids. The jargon is frequency slotting. You scoop one instrument so another instrument has room in the mix.

Many rooms have so much build up in the low mids, that pretty much everyone get's scooped. Unfortunately about all you can do in this situation is reduce the amount of energy you put into the room at problem frequency ranges.

 

[Mike Caldwell]

I like the "suck knob" joke but from experience most FOH want to do a good job. I know I did. Here's one for ya: Pitchy singers. Do you try to minimize their damage by burying them in the mix? NOPE. I don't want people coming up to me saying "I can't hear Muffy sing!" So if she (or anyone else in the band) sux it's on them.

I do the same thing for the same reason, if someone can't sing it or play it they still get placed in the mix where that part should be.
Sometimes that can be reveling to others when they hear an actual mix.

 

[Wasnex]

then I can get at least 2 minutes to run through my presets.

One additional factor I should have mentioned. If there is a problem going between two presets, the ideal solution is for the presets to be edited (quickly). This means the person using the presets needs to have a very good understanding of how to navigate the processors operating interface and also understand what all of the control do.

Ideally all of the effects should be dialed in as well as you can before sound check starts. But in my experience, settings often need to be optimized a bit for the situation. As the situation changes it can throw various setting out of balance. For example the tonal balance, relative volume, and level of saturation tends to vary with how loud you need to play. If you have patches dialed in for a loud gig, they may not work perfectly for a lower volume gig, and vice-versa.

 

[Omega Monkey]

a lot of but not all sound guys don't actually hear bass pitches well and can't differentiate between bass and drums

This is hate speech, and I am calling whatever the equivalent of the ADL is for sound engineers tomorrow morning when they open.

I really get that a bands live sound is made or screwed , by the FOH operator.

Actually, it's really down to the band for the most part until you get to places big enough that the cymbals are disappearing by the back of the room. If the band sounds good on stage and the sound guy can get the vocals to sit where they need to without feedback, that's about all they need to do for a solid mix in 90% of those cases. If the band sounds terrible on stage, no sound guy can save them unless we're talking about a pretty big venue where the stage sound is basically inconsequential.

It's funny that going into a studio to record, bands look to engineers, producers , to get THE sound, yet live most seem to be obvious to anything other than how good independently, they all played

It's really crazy. Like, bro, I am GETTING PAID A LOT OF MONEY to stand here and make you sound good, perhaps at least CONSIDERING my suggestions would be in your best interests?

Just thinking, as people are talking about what sound guys are "generally" like - I wonder if different TB members have had experiences with VERY different breeds of "sound guy." There's a world of difference between the sound guy who works with pros in a big market like Nashville or LA and one who is the local rural dive bar's co-manager in Missouri who used to be in a band himself fifteen years ago.

There's a big difference between "a guy standing behind a mixer" and a sound engineer.

Had a guy that had an SB500 series Ibanez, and found he turned mid and treb all the way down, and dimed the bass control.

I hope you gave him the Old Yeller treatment after the show.

I can't understand when I see a bigger show and it takes two songs before the lead vocals are properly audible. AFTER an extensive afternoon sound check.

To be fair, bands ALMOST NEVER soundcheck how they play without a LOT of "encouragement". "Hey, can I get some kick?" *tippy tappy tippy tappy* Like, bro, I need your actual volume, I'm doing your gain staging right now, and as soon as I see clipping during the show your gain is getting dumped immediately anyway. Unless you just actually are the quietest drummer on the planet.

Sometimes I'd get compliments on a mix and I'd say "That's them, I'm just making it louder" .

One of my common somewhat self deprecating sayings (when working with an actual good band) is "the band does most of the work, I just make it louder".

The other was to drop the overall mix level down a notch

Shhhhhh, we can't let this top secret information get out to the public! It needs to stay locked in the vault like it always has been. Wait, this is something that's common sense and easily able to be figured out?

If some asked how loud to play

I didn't know Narnia had any live music venues.

 

[Omega Monkey]

Anyway, the best thing you can do as a band is turn the F down.

The best thing you can do as a bassist within that band is keep your low mids flat or somewhat cut, and leave some damn upper mids and highs in your sound. If it sounds a little too bright to you right in front of the amp, it's probably perfect in the room, because those highs disappear in like 15 feet or less usually. But the lows and low mids don't.

I just don't understand how bands really truly have absolutely NO idea how to balance themselves on stage. Almost always there's at least one person who is just wildly inappropriate.

And then singers always want like 150 db of themselves in the wedges to the point that it's painful for everyone on stage and I'm pulling them back out of the mains. I should never have to adjust the vocals in the mains because the wedges are too hot. That's absolutely ludicrous. If I can hear you blasting from the back of the room without the PA even on, how can you not hear yourself from that same wedge 5 feet in front of you? Learn how to listen. Also, tell your damn guitarist and/or drummer to turn down.

The best sounding bands are the ones where if you just unplug the PA, it sounds like I'm doing an amazing job. But so many bands are actually ACTIVELY COMBATIVE against sounding good and making ANY "sacrifice" for the good of the house mix (ie what the audience hears, ie the whole point of anyone being there or getting paid). I had this obnoxious Jersey boy type guitarist/singer with a wedding band a couple weeks ago. Dude would NOT back off the mic for love or money but of course kept wanting MORE in the wedge (and also had his vintage Fender amp CRANKED all night playing at beyond lead volumes even for background rhythm parts in an 8 piece band with horns and keys and like 5 vocals). I said if you back off the mic a bit you will hear yourself better because you will actually have some definition and I can bring your gain up. But of course he wouldn't do it for more than 3 seconds meaning I never got his gain up, and he's saying stuff like "I've been singing for 30 years, you never back off the mic, blah blah blah". Like, bro, if you want to sound terrible, then by all means. But the guitar was crapping all over the otherwise damn good mix all night, and the actual primary lead singers were bitching about not hearing themselves because this guy has his 40+ watt amp practically dimed for no reason 10 feet away from them (also not up on a stand and not even using the factory kickback legs).

 

[Lance Bunyon]

I never complain since I never know how it really sounds in the room , I just take the word of the sax player .

Sax player only shows up when he wants to.