Conversations with FOH guys..

[Chickenwheels]

Good teams = Good results.

There's much to be said about getting a great bass sound that works for your situation. I think, for me anyway, it's just having good technique, ears and experience.
Also, focusing too much on yourself instead of the whole sound of the group is a hang up.

 

[BassJuju]

I've always viewed this as a partnership. I ask what I can do different and expect honest answers. In other words, even if I never asked, if my tone was unusable, I'd expect feedback so that I could address the issue or lack thereof. I'm currently blessed with talented FOH guys that love to make us all sound good. In the past, I've had FOH that said everything was great, but regardless of equipment, bass was in the subs and nowhere else. And, barely there.

Everyone is responsible for some portion of the end product. If one isn't part of the solution, they are the problem.

 

[klattman]

I send a post eq and sound has always been good with it. Either I'm lucky, they didn't care and it sounded like crap, or the time I spend dialing in tone in the context of the mix paid off.
I'm voting for #3 based on video of one of the events from near center where everything sounded pretty good.

Of course it's easy for a trio. Significantly harder for a 5 piece or larger group.

 

[GreyBeard]

It has been my experience that a lot of but not all sound guys don't actually hear bass pitches well and can't differentiate between bass and drums. So often they take a dry feed from the bass DI and crank it up until they get a good light at the board and feel some rumble. They don't realize or care that they need to place the bass in a pocket above the kick and below the guitar. And, they often over balance the drums to the point that they swallow everything below the guitars and vocals so the bass player might as well skip an octave and trill. I've been to several concerts of big name acts that I could not hear ONE NOTE the bass player played, it was all covered by the drums. Bass players get SCREWED IN THE MIX more than any other instrument. (jmho)

 

[Mike Caldwell]

Yeah…sound guys are lazy with bass. Been that way for years.

Um...not all!

 

[Mike Caldwell]

It has been my experience that a lot of but not all sound guys don't actually hear bass pitches well and can't differentiate between bass and drums. So often they take a dry feed from the bass DI and crank it up until they get a good light at the board and feel some rumble. They don't realize or care that they need to place the bass in a pocket above the kick and below the guitar. And, they often over balance the drums to the point that they swallow everything below the guitars and vocals. I've been to several concerts of big name acts that I could not hear ONE NOTE the bass player played, it was all covered by the drums. Bass players get SCREWED IN THE MIX more than any other instrument. (jmho)

i can agree that some just like to feel their system rumble and shake and once they achieve that there all done, that may work for about 3% of the music genres and sucks for the rest.

Couple tendencies I have sometimes noticed, some try to mix EVERYTHING to sound like the music they personally like to listen to or if they play an instrument themselves their mix is centered on that one instrument.

 

[6-3-2]

I think many bands need to know more about how a good live mix happens. My eyes were opened by watching live engineers talk about making live bass audible (it's not about raw volume) and also listening to how studio engineers mix and process bass. I had a chip on my shoulder about bass being buried in a mix, but honestly, I should've educated myself more and listened to the engineers. They were giving me good advice.

 

[GreyBeard]

Perhaps you should run sound yourself. Then you can spend the entire show fiddling with the bass, only to realize it doesn't matter what you do, because the musicians' choices have made it impossible for you to actually make the bass sound good.

FYI, I do spend a fair amount of time dialing in the bass, but it's not done with the bassist playing by him/herself. It's done in the context of the mix. If I can actually make a difference, I will continually make adjustments for the duration of the show.

However, I have mixed plenty of shows where I didn't have any control over the bass because there was way too much low end coming off the stage. When that occurs, I take an incremental approach: 1. pull the bass out of the subs, 2. adjust the HPF higher, and 3. push the channel fader all the way down.

You write like you know what to do with bass guitar. You are in the minority.

 

[GreyBeard]

The concerts that I have attended that I could actually hear the bass have some commonality. The bass player was using a pick with their pb, jb, or ric. Or they were playing a StingRay. I heard YES and the EAGLES at the same venue. I heard every note that Chris Squire played on his Ric that he played with a pick. However I didn't hear much of Timothy B Schmidt playing his jb and Carvin finger style. Also I heard several concerts at WVU Coliseum which has like a 7 sec reverb. Even though both Tina Turner and Gloria Estefan's bass players played MM SR5's which had enough growl to cut through all the boom. I totally agree that Bartolini-ish scooped hi-fi tone sounds great in the bedroom or in a small venue with everything coming off the stage but, doesn't do well in big venues coming through FOH. You need mid-range growl to cut through.

 

[fokof]

Our manager walks the room during sound check and lets us know (and the soundman know) what needs what.

That's good one , Joke of the month
Thinking about making it my signature !!!!

 

[seamonkey]

but don't these guys rehearse with their bands?

Bands should consider rehearsing with their sound engineer. Or, if you have a "Producer" or Manager, then they should know what your band is conveying in your sound, and communicate that to the house sound engineer in a non-obnoxious way.

 

[agedhorse]

Some sound techs are pro and some are not. Bottom line is if house sound treated guitar like they treat bass they'd be fired by the end of the week. Sometimes that "unusable" sound is critical to the song. Tell them "Use a compressor and don't be a jerk."
But say it nicer so they don't sabotage.
Or use a pedal board and send the signal where you want it.

Yeah…sound guys are lazy with bass. Been that way for years.

IME, that's not an accurate generalization.

Totally get that. But what I'm saying is a sound engineer wound Never insist on a DI from a clean guitar signal. They'd never even ask. No sound tech would force a guitar player to send a different sound to FOH than is critical to the structure of their songs.
Take this how you please, but the notion that a mic on an amp or a processed bass signal can't be used is usually just a lazy attitude. If overdrive or delay or some other processing is part of the song it shouldn't be up to the board mixer to decide. But yes a BL should take that position.

Different tools for different tasks. For example, placing a mic on a guitar amp that's already too loud off the stage results in none in the PA. In this case, it doesn't matter what is used on the guitar, the result is still too much guitar in the mix.

Often, a DI on bass sounds better in the mix, post effects as needed.

It has been my experience that a lot of but not all sound guys don't actually hear bass pitches well and can't differentiate between bass and drums. So often they take a dry feed from the bass DI and crank it up until they get a good light at the board and feel some rumble. They don't realize or care that they need to place the bass in a pocket above the kick and below the guitar. And, they often over balance the drums to the point that they swallow everything below the guitars and vocals so the bass player might as well skip an octave and trill. I've been to several concerts of big name acts that I could not hear ONE NOTE the bass player played, it was all covered by the drums. Bass players get SCREWED IN THE MIX more than any other instrument. (jmho)

IME, this is not in general accurate at all. Maybe you have had some unfortunate experiences, but that's far from the usual experience.

You write like you know what to do with bass guitar. You are in the minority.

This too is not in general accurate. There are plenty of FOH engineers that have no problems getting excellent results with bass.

 

[Old Ozzie Guy]

IV found this thread (and the other one that a kind sole put a link to), Very Interesting reading.
Over the years IV been lucky (?) enough to have
1 played in bands (almost exclusively the dreaded LP and Marshall stack),
2 "twiddle" knobs to the side of stage, and the front
3 wrote /recorded to cart, a few quite embarrassing radio ads.
I really get that a bands live sound is made or screwed , by the FOH operator..
It's funny that going into a studio to record, bands look to engineers, producers , to get THE sound, yet live most seem to be obvious to anything other than how good independently, they all played..Think Beatles minus George Martin's creative genius..they could have not progressed from
Yeah yeah yeah..
I'm probably raving on, so I will leave it..

 

[Old Ozzie Guy]

IV found this thread (and the other one that a kind sole put a link to), Very Interesting reading.
Over the years IV been lucky (?) enough to have
1 played in bands (almost exclusively the dreaded LP and Marshall stack),
2 "twiddle" knobs to the side of stage, and the front
3 wrote /recorded to cart, a few quite embarrassing radio ads.
I really get that a bands live sound is made or screwed , by the FOH operator..
It's funny that going into a studio to record, bands look to engineers, producers , to get THE sound, yet live most seem to be obvious to anything other than how good independently, they all played..Think Beatles minus George Martin's creative genius..they could have not progressed from
Yeah yeah yeah..
I'm probably raving on, so I will leave it..

What I'm trying to say is that a good band
+ a good sound engineer (especially if he knows the material)
= a Brilliant sound..1+1=3!!

 

[hrodbert696]

Just thinking, as people are talking about what sound guys are "generally" like - I wonder if different TB members have had experiences with VERY different breeds of "sound guy." There's a world of difference between the sound guy who works with pros in a big market like Nashville or LA and one who is the local rural dive bar's co-manager in Missouri who used to be in a band himself fifteen years ago.

 

[buldog5151bass]

Another thing - don't try to fight City Hall. Tell soundperson your preference, but if they are going to to take a DI, they are going to take a DI. You know that likely could happen. Know how to get the best sound from that route as well.

 

[Stylee Mousse]

I'm with WASNEX re mics. I worked a club sound gig for about 10 years. I always did my best to get all instruments to sound as good as possible in the house. I did mostly 3 (or more sometimes) band bills with sound checks for headliners only.
So I'd set up an array of vocal and instrument mics before anyone showed up (and ring out and optimize monitor volume).

as a smaller venue featuring local and touring original bands I worked mostly with acts bringing in full stage amp setups so I was reinforcing what they put into the room. If the amps were loud the PA could primarily reinforce drum and vocals.

so - bass player with amp obviously eq'd to their preference, complete with all their fx if they use them, miced with something that rolls off frequencies the house does not need. Good players sounded good, like themselves, bad players/tones also sounded like themselves. I'd fix what I could. Also - no arguing about pre/post di, etc.

 

[agedhorse]

Just thinking, as people are talking about what sound guys are "generally" like - I wonder if different TB members have had experiences with VERY different breeds of "sound guy." There's a world of difference between the sound guy who works with pros in a big market like Nashville or LA and one who is the local rural dive bar's co-manager in Missouri who used to be in a band himself fifteen years ago.

This is a good point. The market itself matters as well as the level the band is at and the quality of production their shows can justify.

I generally worked in major markets, venues seating 500-5000, with acts that generated significant GP ($10k-$100k), so the production was usually quite good overall.

 

[musicman7722]

I spend the majority of time trying to fix the bass in the FOH mix than any other instrument. And I play bass but that only means that I recognize how bad it sounds. Bass is the toughest instrument to mix.

 

[fokof]

Just thinking, as people are talking about what sound guys are "generally" like - I wonder if different TB members have had experiences with VERY different breeds of "sound guy." There's a world of difference between the sound guy who works with pros in a big market like Nashville or LA and one who is the local rural dive bar's co-manager in Missouri who used to be in a band himself fifteen years ago.

Also the gear gives a good idea.

If the place has a L'Acoustic kit with a CL5 board as opposed to a Peavey kit with an X32.
The CL5 room won't let Average Joe/Brother in law touch the board , better chance you'll have a pro/seasoned soundman.

I know there are exception , as usual , but it can give a clue in advance.