Double Bass Counting

[ED3]

I know this seems ridiculous, but I've always been one to learn a song by ear and never really 'count' per se. Within reason, I can always lock into a song I hear when im learning through tabs, but I want to be able to bring my playing to the next level. I'm currently going through Marks Talking bass courses starting from the beginning to make sure that my fundamentals are down, but is there any other ways of practicing to be better at counting/ staying along with the rythmn?

any advice is always appreciated.

 

[Mushroo]

"Transcribing" will get your rhythm skills in shape better than any other exercise!

If transcribing bass lines is beyond your current skill set, try transcribing the basic drum beats to some easy rock/pop songs. Like for example, the basic backbeat rhythm, "boom, bap, boom-boom bap," what does that look like on paper? Are we talking quarter notes, eighth notes, sixteenth notes, etc.? Grab a pencil and paper, and write it down!!

That's how I learned to count rhythm, anyway. Worked for me, and highly recommended!

 

[Steve Freides]

@ED3, the book I've used as both student and teacher for rhythm is Rhythmic Training by Robert Starer. It doesn't require a lot of explanation - you could just get it and start using it, I think.

I know this seems ridiculous, but I've always been one to learn a song by ear and never really 'count' per se.

Hey, it's not ridiculous, it's your experience. It is, I'll admit, a far distance from my own experience, but, IMO, so what?

The other things to say, although it likely ain't gonna happen during the pandemic, is to put yourself into a situation where you need to read music, e.g., sing in a local community or church choir. Singing in a choir is a time-honored way of learning to speak the language of music more fluently - great not only for counting but for your ear as well.

-S-

 

[ED3]

Thank you for the recommendation for the book.

I guess it's one of those things that has been a weak point for me when I play with people. I was never classically trained and cannot read music, but I've decided to take on a challenge during this whole pandemic and learn how to read music and be an all around better musician. My ear is okay, but I want to develop my skills to hopefully one day be able to perform at local venues and perhaps become proficient enough (one day) for session work / be in a steady band.

 

[JRA]

I want to develop my skills to hopefully one day be able to perform at local venues and perhaps become proficient enough (one day) for session work / be in a steady band.

 

[longfinger]

I concur with the book recommendation of "Rhythmic Training", by Robert Starer.

 

[Steve Freides]

I was never classically trained and cannot read music ...

I guess this depends on what you mean by "classically trained" but "formally trained" might be more what you mean. I grew up playing jazz but my training included reading music and music theory, and stood me in good stead when it became time to be a classical musician for me in college. Somehow, when you're a kid and discussing how to voice Gmin7add13 on different combinations of 4 strings and in different neck positions on the guitar, classical things like roman numeral analysis and figured bass just aren't that hard.

... but I've decided to take on a challenge during this whole pandemic and learn how to read music and be an all around better musician.

Good for you. This is a fine time for self-improvement.

My ear is okay, but I want to develop my skills to hopefully one day be able to perform at local venues and perhaps become proficient enough (one day) for session work / be in a steady band.

As you seem to already know, becoming a music reader opens up a whole other world to you. Good on you again.

-S-

 

[TroyK]

Work with a metronome. It sucks. It's not fun (for a while), it's not musical, but it will accomplish what you are saying that you need help with.

Play quarter notes at an easy tempo and play right on-top of the beat.
Play 1/2 notes
Play 1/8 notes
Play 1/8 note triplets
Play swing 8th notes (first and 3rd triplet)

Transcribe a syncopated line and notate out where the notes are during that measure (1 + the & of 3).

Set the metronome faster and do the same.
Set the metronome MUCH SLOWER and do the same

I am of the firm belief that almost no one naturally has good time, at least not command of the time, but everyone thinks they do. When you really commit to working with a metronome, you can't hide from your limitations, but you can start to hear them and progress can come quickly with doing some consistent work, then you have a new problem...you'll be able to hear how bad everyone else's time is. It's kind of a drag, it will ruin a lot of live music that you ustawouldof enjoyed and you may realize that you don't enjoy playing with some people who you used to enjoy playing with. But, it is the way to become a better musician and essential for a bassist. And it will open up better playing opportunities for you.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I would like to add to use the metronome on 2 and 4 also, specially for jazz, pop and rock (and maybe even classical). For Latin music it works better with 1 and 3 or the clave.

The goal is to no longer hear the metronome because the bass note attack falls together with the loud metronome click then.
If you hear the metronome in front of your bass note you are too late with your bass note. The mechanical movement needs to be anticipated so that the acoustical impulse of the note falls together with the beat.
It can be hard to be that exact, specially if you play smaller notes than half and quarter notes, but if you can do it and feel good to keep in time the with the metronome, you will also keep the tempo better when playing without a metronome or click track.
It can happen that you get angry when the others don't adjust to a good and steady time and tempo and think they are right and you are wrong. In that case the only way to convince them you do it better than them is measure both, the band adjusts to you or you play alone and you adjust to the band tempo, with a metronome app that can show the bpm-variation with tapped in beats by a non-playing musician. And it will show also if your tempo is as steady as you think.

To find the right beat for the next note divide the metronome beat into smaller rhythmical notes in your head like a permanent stream of eighth notes. After some time, you do not need to do that any longer because then you know when the note needs to be placed. But doing it might still improve micro timing to place the beat best. If you think you did it well you can try more complicated rhythms or with smaller note values like 16th notes in it.

 

[BrotherMister]

Start simple and play whole notes. That way the focus is on counting and less on playing.

Then half notes. Then half notes and whole notes combined. Then quarter notes. Etc

And go slow!

 

[Neon Scribe]

OP is a bass guitar player. Thanks to all of you for your helpful advice, independent of instrument! I'd like to recommend the Hal Leonard Bass Method Complete Edition by Ed Friedland as a great tool for helping you to learn to read music for the bass guitar. The essentials of reading are laid out very clearly at the front, and the reading gets more advanced along with the playing as you go through the books. By the 3rd book, you'll be reading and playing syncopated 16th patterns, which are about as tricky as you're likely to encounter while playing the bass. (Any bass!) The books include audio tracks, which means you can still use your playing-by-ear skills to help you with learning to read.

Maybe someday you'll try the double bass. That's a whole other adventure!

 

[Steve Freides]

I'd like to recommend the Hal Leonard Bass Method Complete Edition

+1 - I think the HL method books for both electric bass and guitar are solid.

-S-

 

[Ed S]

For the past 10 years, I played mostly BG/oldtime, and took pride in my sense of timing. Loved it when folk called me "Steady Eddy"! Over the past year I've started trying to play classical ensemble pieces. Those have taken my music reading and counting to an entirely new level. It is an entirely different exercise to count a bass "line" - with rests and such, not to mention written dynamics/fermata/etc, as opposed to just holding down the beat. Would help even if you just played it pizz w/o picking up the sitck.

Not sure exactly how this is going to emerge in my preferred playing, but anytime I can feel my poor old bran working that hard, I figure it is a good thing. Of course, I mentioned in a previous thread, that when I got back w/ my old BG jam, just driving the beat was a challenge after what I had been working on. But that came back quickly.

And yeah, you hafta work w/ a metronome - if only for a few minutes a week. Use it as the 1/3 and as the 2/4. Again - make your brain strain. If nothing else, you'll be staving off Alzheimer's!

 

[jj.833]

I recommend this book: Modern Reading Text in 4/4.

Good for both strenghtening your rhythm and your reading. You don't need any instrument, your fingers are enough, so it's appliable in mass transit or any other lost time venue.

EDIT: it's so old I wouldn't be surprised if you found it free on Slideshare or webs like this.

 

[Steve Freides]

Maybe someday you'll try the double bass. That's a whole other adventure!

I need this on a t-shirt.

-S-

 

[Bruce Calin]

A few thoughts: My experience with students of various ages has shown me that the earlier in life you develop these skills the easier it is. Kids get reading skills fairly easily most of the time. Adults generally have a much harder time and are more easily frustrated. In my own case, I found that in the latest issue of the ISB magazine there's an article with a pizz rhythm exercise used by Larry Grenadier that completely messed me up- a real eye opener. Now I'm determined to work it out. I'll see if my experience with adults applies to me. One last thing about teaching music reading to students in their school orchestras is the fact that the orchestral literature has lots of symbols that require a fair amount of explanation as to what they mean and why they are what they are. Sometimes it's like trying to explain to your kid why the sky is blue(but WHY, Dad?).

 

[g-dude]

I know this seems ridiculous, but I've always been one to learn a song by ear and never really 'count' per se. Within reason, I can always lock into a song I hear when im learning through tabs, but I want to be able to bring my playing to the next level. I'm currently going through Marks Talking bass courses starting from the beginning to make sure that my fundamentals are down, but is there any other ways of practicing to be better at counting/ staying along with the rythmn?

any advice is always appreciated.

Playing with other people, or a click track, will build skill.

“Counting” doesn’t even need to be numbers in your head. You just need a way to internalize the time - maybe that’s counting 1-2-3-4, maybe it’s thinking in made up words that resemble what a basic drum beat would be like, maybe it’s literally twitching your tongue in 4 different ways.

The use of numbers is great for communicating, but it’s never about the numbers — giving your mind and body the cues to play the music properly is what you’re really wanting to do.

 

[TroyK]

Playing with other people, or a click track, will build skill.

...

Playing with other people MIGHT HELP develop skill IF they have good command of time.

What I see with people coming in to jazz, where you play with a lot of different people and are not as inclined to rehearse for hours a week with a band is that sometimes they didn't know that they have poor time because they spent hundreds of hours playing with a group that has poor time.

 

[g-dude]

Playing with other people MIGHT HELP develop skill IF they have good command of time.

What I see with people coming in to jazz, where you play with a lot of different people and are not as inclined to rehearse for hours a week with a band is that sometimes they didn't know that they have poor time because they spent hundreds of hours playing with a group that has poor time.

That is a good point. Maybe I’m spoiled!

 

[Anne Millington]

Totally concur with the metronome or click track suggestion. Whatever else you do, learn to be steady, and subdivide as you will above that.