Couple More Practical IEM Q's

[bucephylus]

1) How do you communicate with the other musicians, while luxuriating in your IEM paradise? For example, if I want to tell the drummer to slow down, pick it up, or bring it down (a few common comm bytes); do cats use hand signals or something? How does that work? Learn to read lips?

2) Do I need to be thinking about getting a matching transmitter rack unit to use if I go do fill in gigs with another band, which is also IEM? Or do you unrack your transmitter from the band rack to go do those gigs? How does that work? I can see issues with tearing into the band rack.

3) And, related to #2, what happens when another musician comes in to do a fill in? Do they have to have their own IEM system, or does the band supply that for them? We've got a drummer lined up to sub for us on an upcoming gig; but, I'm pretty sure he doesn't have IEM gear.

Thanks in advance for your thoughtful input. Still on the learning curve.

 

[s0c9]

1. I pop an ear out when between songs (easy to do once you get used to the process), or hand signals or visual enunciation of words when not.. but.. you shouldn't have to tell the drummer to "slow down, pick it up, or bring it down".. that's a separate issue
2. When I sub with other bands, they are usually not IEM, so not been an issue for me.. but.. you could put your xmitter in it's own single rack-space and stack it with (on top of/under?) your home bands rack, hooking up the cables each time you gig. PITA, but fully portable to other IEM based bands.
3. The BL (or you) need to be up front with that sub on how you do things. They either have their "system" or use yours.. Either way, they should have their own buds !!

 

[bucephylus]

1. I pop an ear out when between songs (easy to do once you get used to the process), or hand signals or visual enunciation of words when not.. but.. you shouldn't have to tell the drummer to "slow down, pick it up, or bring it down".. that's a separate issue
2. When I sub with other bands, they are usually not IEM, so not been an issue for me.. but.. you could put your xmitter in it's own single rack-space and stack it with (on top of/under?) your home bands rack, hooking up the cables each time you gig. PITA, but fully portable to other IEM based bands.
3. The BL (or you) need to be up front with that sub on how you do things. They either have their "system" or use yours.. Either way, they should have their own buds !!

Thanks for your answers, which I really do appreciate; because I value your experience with this system.

But, regarding the first Q: Have you actually ever played in local bar bands? Seriously. Just saying that the drummer shouldn't need any mid tune feedback is just not consistent with my experiences in the trenches. Maybe, you have always played with perfect musicians; but, I've always worked with normal folks. Some better than others. So, what; bands with less than perfect players should just pack it up and find some other activity?

And regarding the third Q, I highly doubt most local bar musicians have their own ears and supporting electronics. The system is too new on that scene. I'm posting these Q's because the gear is working it's way down into the bar band trenches. That is creating some situations that folks don't think about up front. Different scene from the pro touring circuit.

 

[s0c9]

But, regarding the first Q: Have you actually ever played in local bar bands? Seriously. Just saying that the drummer shouldn't need any mid tune feedback is just not consistent with my experiences in the trenches. Maybe, you have always played with perfect musicians; but, I've always worked with normal folks. Some better than others. So, what; bands with less than perfect players should just pack it up and find some other activity?

Well, if you consider Country Honky Tonks to be bars.. then yeah.. literally dozens...
Yes, we were a TOP tier country band playing "A" venues, and most bands on that "circuit" were either ALL IEM, or partially. Those regional and national acts I've opened for were ALL IEM.
Here's some vids of us in a "local bar".. 4 of the 6 are on ears.. including the drummer and lead vox. Recorded on an HD cam with no post processing of the audio.




When I started out on the IEM path, I played in a rock/variety and yes, MOST were NOT IEM.. that was 7+ yrs ago. NOT having been in that genre for the last 5 yrs, I can't say how prevalent it has become.
Again.. MOST.. not all.
Maybe I've been lucky with drummers in my secular bands (last drummer we had toured with Miranda Lambert for 4 yrs - he's playing in the vids above) and most use a click track. Now, my church band drummers do have tempo problems, but they are "volunteers" and mostly teenagers/kids. With them, I try to hold the groove (we both have the click in our ears) and keep them on track. If not, we'll discuss before or between services. Yes, it's a learning process.. and remember.. I'm no pro.. just a VERY busy weekend warrior - or was until last June when the band in the vids above folded.

Here's a vid I found with our original drummer whom we let go after 3 yrs.. (long story).. Same venue. He was on IEM's and a click track too!



NOTE: other than the drummer in the to p2 vids.. the REST of us are all "normal" people with day jobs and careers..

And regarding the third Q, I highly doubt most local bar musicians have their own ears and supporting electronics. The system is too new on that scene. I'm posting these Q's because the gear is working it's way down into the bar band trenches. That is creating some situations that folks don't think about up front. Different scene from the pro touring circuit.

Many on my circuit do.. again, as I stated above, can't really say for the rock scene, but based on the posts here on TB and other forums I frequent, many, many are IEM. I'm also guessing that most of those posters are NOT touring pros.

 

[bucephylus]

Well, if you consider Country Honky Tonks to be bars.. then yeah.. literally dozens...
Yes, we were a TOP tier country band playing "A" venues, and most bands on that "circuit" were either ALL IEM, or partially. Those regional and national acts I've opened for were ALL IEM.
Here's some vids of us in a "local bar".. 4 of the 6 are on ears.. including the drummer and lead vox. Recorded on an HD cam with no post processing of the audio.




When I started out on the IEM path, I played in a rock/variety and yes, MOST were NOT IEM.. that was 7+ yrs ago. NOT having been in that genre for the last 5 yrs, I can't say how prevalent it has become.
Again.. MOST.. not all.
Maybe I've been lucky with drummers in my secular bands (last drummer we had toured with Miranda Lambert for 4 yrs - he's playing in the vids above) and most use a click track. Now, my church band drummers do have tempo problems, but they are "volunteers" and mostly teenagers/kids. With them, I try to hold the groove (we both have the click in our ears) and keep them on track. If not, we'll discuss before or between services. Yes, it's a learning process.. and remember.. I'm no pro.. just a VERY busy weekend warrior - or was until last June when the band in the vids above folded.

Here's a vid I found with our original drummer whom we let go after 3 yrs.. (long story).. Same venue. He was on IEM's and a click track too!



NOTE: other than the drummer in the to p2 vids.. the REST of us are all "normal" people with day jobs and careers..

Many on my circuit do.. again, as I stated above, can't really say for the rock scene, but based on the posts here on TB and other forums I frequent, many, many are IEM. I'm also guessing that most of those posters are NOT touring pros.

Nice! You cats play very well.

But, here is what I am getting at. Take "Drink On It." Great tune BTW, I just auditioned that one with one of our local country acts. Here is the studio mix:



I'm not putting that there to criticize your mix; but, listen carefully to the mix hierarchy in the studio version vs what goes down live. What I hear is that your bass is nowhere near as present in the mix and your guitars are more or less sitting at a constant level vs moving in the mix to support the vocal or be out front when there is no vocal. I mean, you cats are playing all the right notes and everything; but, the dynamics aren't where I would be entirely happy with it. And, that was actually the point of my OP in the other thread I recently started.

Again, not intended as negative criticism; our band is fighting the same issues. Your band sounds great. But, here's the thing: We spend all the time getting arrangements down, learning all the parts to a T; and shouldn't we also put the same level of analysis and effort into getting the dynamics and mix to be correct? There is a LOT involved in the mix that affects the overall performance impact. Why do we learn parts note for note, and then accept a dull mix as ok?

Anyhow, that was my originally intended OP point; whether it makes sense or not.

 

[LowNloud1]

I am in a local 90's band and we started using IEMs over a year ago. Yes, they are expensive but the band bought the transmitters and we bought our own receivers and ear buds. The band rebated about 50% of my cost but I could have asked for more and didn't. That's how happy I am with the purchase.

As for bringing people in who don't have IEMs, we have "guest" singers (they are paid) who come in a do a couple songs with us. The band bought a receiver for them to use. They must supply their own earbuds but they love the IEMs.

I can say that using IEMs has improved our singing, harmonies and ability to hear ourselves and each other. Our floor wedges are gone. A cleaner stage. Less heavy equipment to lug in and out. More freedom to move around stage.

I don't see a lot of local bands using them. Most are put off by the cost. Some are just set in their ways. Purely a matter of choice. I can say that the 2 people I introduced to IEMs went out and bought a wireless system or adopted a hard-wired, in-ear system. It does not have to cost an arm and a leg.

Whether you use IEMs or floor monitors, it is always difficult to get a drummers attention. Our system is to step towards his kit or get into his field of vision. Because it is almost always about tempo. I raise my head to signal faster or lower it to signal slower.

PS: Kudos to sc09 and scotkartch for helping me with getting started with IEMs.

 

[Meyatch]

1)We have 4 vocal mics across the front of the stage (for 4 of us to sing into) I can hear most anything people are saying between songs. Otherwise, hand signals, pointing, lip reading, all viable methods of in song communication. You could also set up a separate mic that would only go to the monitors. I think waving your hand in a downward motion is pretty universal for slow down.

2)This is going to pretty much be entirely up to you. If I was filling in with another band, and they were using in-ears, I would probably expect to bring my headphones, and borrow the rest. You'd want to find out from the band, and this is probably a case by case basis.

3) we have an extra headphones for fill ins to borrow (and extra foam surrounds) it's a little gross, but what else are you going to do? We would set up a monitor for someone to use if we had to.

(Edit: we also have q-tips and rubbing alcohol to clean them)

 

[s0c9]

Nice! You cats play very well.

.
.
I'm not putting that there to criticize your mix; but, listen carefully to the mix hierarchy in the studio version vs what goes down live. What I hear is that your bass is nowhere near as present in the mix and your guitars are more or less sitting at a constant level vs moving in the mix to support the vocal or be out front when there is no vocal. I mean, you cats are playing all the right notes and everything; but, the dynamics aren't where I would be entirely happy with it. And, that was actually the point of my OP.

Again, not intended as negative criticism; our band is fighting the same issues. Your band sounds great. But, here's the thing: We spend all the time getting arrangements down, learning all the parts to a T; and shouldn't we also put the same level of analysis and effort into getting the dynamics and mix to be correct? There is a LOT involved in the mix that affects the overall performance impact. Why do we learn parts note for note, and then accept a dull mix as ok?

Anyhow, that was my originally intended OP point; whether it makes sense or not.

Thanks for the compliment
I understand your point about the mix.. but to be fair, you're comparing a professionally produced studio audio track on a vid versus a recording in a "live" room with a HD cam (and mic) on the other side of a dance floor with ZERO post processing. I'm not sure one captures the dynamics doing that? Yes, there are noticeable differences between the two vids. My guess is that you'd have to be "in the room" with us to feel the dynamics as the vids tend to sterilize that aspect - unless they over-emphasized when playing - which might seem REALLY weird when listening in the room. Mix is a whole different issue that is compounded by not having a permanent FOH gut (we don't) and relying on the House or mixing from stage. Test, set and forget is not going to drive dynamics without someone pushing faders... and that applies (IME) to both FOH and IEM mixes that are static.
If the guitar is constant (level/volume?) in your IEM mix, there's no perception of dynamics. Given that, I don't want to be monitoring a guitar where the levels jump 3db on a solo.. I want to be able to hear it, and do my job.. because I'm not listening to a CD, I'm playing bass lines in a band where we each trigger (cue?) off what the others play.
For example.. I NEVER put toms, OH's or cymbals in my IEM mix. .ugh !! Just kick, hat and snare. Yes, we mic them all for FOH mix. I can hear them bleeding thru my IEM mix.. which I keep as low as possible to hear/feel the band dynamics and get some "ambience" into the mix.

In 5 yrs of doing this, no-one (punters, staff, mgmt) has even complained about the dynamics of our music. It's not jazz tho'. We ARE a country dance band, and as long as folks are up dancing (and eating and drinking) and we keep the crowd.... They want to hear and dance to what's on the local radio. We do that.
Perhaps you are overthinking the "dynamics" aspect ? Idk.. just thinking out loud here.

 

[bucephylus]

Thanks for the compliment
I understand your point about the mix.. but to be fair, you're comparing a professionally produced studio audio track on a vid versus a recording in a "live" room with a HD cam (and mic) on the other side of a dance floor with ZERO post processing. I'm not sure one captures the dynamics doing that? Yes, there are noticeable differences between the two vids. My guess is that you'd have to be "in the room" with us to feel the dynamics as the vids tend to sterilize that aspect - unless they over-emphasized when playing - which might seem REALLY weird when listening in the room. Mix is a whole different issue that is compounded by not having a permanent FOH gut (we don't) and relying on the House or mixing from stage. Test, set and forget is not going to drive dynamics without someone pushing faders... and that applies (IME) to both FOH and IEM mixes that are static.
If the guitar is constant (level/volume?) in your IEM mix, there's no perception of dynamics. Given that, I don't want to be monitoring a guitar where the levels jump 3db on a solo.. I want to be able to hear it, and do my job.. because I'm not listening to a CD, I'm playing bass lines in a band where we each trigger (cue?) off what the others play.
For example.. I NEVER put toms, OH's or cymbals in my IEM mix. .ugh !! Just kick, hat and snare. Yes, we mic them all for FOH mix. I can hear them bleeding thru my IEM mix.. which I keep as low as possible to hear/feel the band dynamics and get some "ambience" into the mix.

In 5 yrs of doing this, no-one (punters, staff, mgmt) has even complained about the dynamics of our music. It's not jazz tho'. We ARE a country dance band, and as long as folks are up dancing (and eating and drinking) and we keep the crowd.... They want to hear and dance to what's on the local radio. We do that.
Perhaps you are overthinking the "dynamics" aspect ? Idk.. just thinking out loud here.

Thanks. Yup, agree with all that. My only reason for "overthinking" the mix is that's our final product. Why put all the effort into getting everything else right and then let that go as good enough? But, perhaps, that's just my mental issue; could be. I'm just trying to figure out how to translate on the fly communications in the IEM world, because I think it matters.

 

[Meyatch]

Thanks. Yup, agree with all that. My only reason for "overthinking" the mix is that's our final product. Why put all the effort into getting everything else right and then let that go as good enough? But, perhaps, that's just my mental issue; could be. I'm just trying to figure out how to translate on the fly communications in the IEM world, because I think it matters.

I don't think anyone has been saying that you shouldn't care about dynamics, or want them to sound good, just that you are expending a great deal of energy on something you have almost no control over.

You'd probably be better served to put time outside of gigs into training your sound man, than worrying all night about it.

 

[Meyatch]

By the way, I'd rather see a band that was playing well, but the bass was a little too quiet and they played a little fast but everyone is playing well and having a good time, than a band with a bass player gesticulating wildly around the stage and getting pissed off because he wants to change a few details (and probably isn't succeeding in changing anything anyway)

 

[Scottkarch]

"SLOW DOWN" are mouth shapes nearly all drummers can lip read. And, if they are playing acoustic drums, they can't hear you anyway probaly and are lip reading to start with.

1) How do you communicate with the other musicians: Lip read a couple words if easy, hand signals for maybe a few things, walk up and talk/yell into their ear usually works if it's important. I'd say that it only happens a couple times per night.. so it isn't something we talk about much. we are looking into a "talkback mic on stage... footswitch triggered that is only in the bands IEMS... but since it doesn't happen much we havent done it yet.

2) Get any transmitter you want, I really can't see it making any difference to anyone. to save costs, especially for the drummer, go wired with a $50 headphone amp. I go wired 90% of the time. The small bars we play I'm often wired with my bass, an extra wire is no big deal. I get 20' thin headphone cables from monoprice for about $4. We have extras if they break. I find wired to sound better than my wireless system and in small bars, I'd recommend people try it and maybe save hundreds or a thousand dollars.

When we have a guest come up ( we've never had a replacement ), we have an extra wireless, usually mine or the drummer since we've gone wired lately.. they need to bring earbuds.. even from their phone etc. Or we have crappy ones they can borrow.

 

[bucephylus]

By the way, I'd rather see a band that was playing well, but the bass was a little too quiet and they played a little fast but everyone is playing well and having a good time, than a band with a bass player gesticulating wildly around the stage and getting pissed off because he wants to change a few details (and probably isn't succeeding in changing anything anyway)

thanks. yeah, that's what I'm doing.

 

[Meyatch]

thanks. yeah, that's what I'm doing.

It's your second thread on it. My post might have been a bit of hyperbole, but it's obviously something you are very concerned with.

 

[Scottkarch]

Have fun... let it go. An audience wants to see you look like youre having fun. They will like a "good enough" band thats rocking out and having fun.. and looks like they are having fun, than a band that looks like they are having problems and paying attention to each other rather than the audience. Yes there will be live adjustments.. a few per night. Some of the things you're trying to fix should be fixed during rehersal/practice. When live, you perform. just go for it! Rock out and have fun..... I walked up to a bar pre-show at a place we play a couple times per year... and the bartender said "Hey! It's the bass player that's always smiling. here have a beer" People want to see you having fun, they probably won't notice any problems that you notice. If they don't bother the audience, don't let it bother you. Work on it at practice, but once you're performing.. HAVE FUN and look like you're having fun. Personally, it sounds like youre obsessing over this and taking it way to seriously. But that could be becuase you're just trying to get to the bottom of your problem. Have fun performing on stage, work things out at practice.

 

[s0c9]

Thanks. Yup, agree with all that. My only reason for "overthinking" the mix is that's our final product. Why put all the effort into getting everything else right and then let that go as good enough? But, perhaps, that's just my mental issue; could be. I'm just trying to figure out how to translate on the fly communications in the IEM world, because I think it matters.

I'm not sure you have much control of that with IEM's and without experienced/seasoned musicians. As I said above - "Test, set and forget is not going to drive dynamics without someone pushing faders... and that applies (IME) to both FOH and IEM mixes that are static. If the guitar is constant (level/volume?) in your IEM mix, there's no perception of dynamics."
Communicating with others is necessary, yes. Some of the other replies look like they should work - non-verbal signals, etc.
Still, I've seen very few live bands if any (even national acts that I've opened for) where the live show matched the CD... unless it was a memorex show

 

[Meyatch]

By the way I'm not trying to be a smartass "let go of the front of house mix" is some of the best advice I can give you for enjoying in ear monitors.

 

[pfschim]

Nice! You cats play very well.

But, here is what I am getting at. Take "Drink On It." Great tune BTW, I just auditioned that one with one of our local country acts. Here is the studio mix:



I'm not putting that there to criticize your mix; but, listen carefully to the mix hierarchy in the studio version vs what goes down live. What I hear is that your bass is nowhere near as present in the mix and your guitars are more or less sitting at a constant level vs moving in the mix to support the vocal or be out front when there is no vocal. I mean, you cats are playing all the right notes and everything; but, the dynamics aren't where I would be entirely happy with it. And, that was actually the point of my OP in the other thread I recently started.

Again, not intended as negative criticism; our band is fighting the same issues. Your band sounds great. But, here's the thing: We spend all the time getting arrangements down, learning all the parts to a T; and shouldn't we also put the same level of analysis and effort into getting the dynamics and mix to be correct? There is a LOT involved in the mix that affects the overall performance impact. Why do we learn parts note for note, and then accept a dull mix as ok?

Anyhow, that was my originally intended OP point; whether it makes sense or not.

ha, funny, that entire video consists of some chick looking off somewhere, playing with her hair and sipping her drink.
I am interested in IEM's myself and somewhat confused by the options. So I check out these threads from time to time to try and get more informed.

 

[mwbassace]

#1 - Some people will wear a lavalier mic when using IEM's that is put only in the monitor mix for communicating, ambient room sound, etc.

#2 - Don't rack your transmitter. Yes it's a little more to set up/teardown.

#3 - The sub can use the bands IEM system, just make sure you have new, unused tips if thay don't have their own earbuds. Any 1/8" eqiuipped earbuds/headphones should work, sound quality not withstanding. A casino gig I did in the past required us to use IEM's, that they provided, and gave us new tips or we could bring our own buds.

 

[s0c9]

ha, funny, that entire video consists of some chick looking off somewhere, playing with her hair and sipping her drink.
I am interested in IEM's myself and somewhat confused by the options. So I check out these threads from time to time to try and get more informed.

There's not really much to be confused about.
50,000 ft level.. If you have specific questions, I'll do my best answer them.

There are ONLY TWO types of IEM..

• Universals - generic fit that come with a range of tips to fit your ear canal. The "cheaper" approach
• Customs - custom molded (usually hypo-allergenic acrylic shells) where ear impressions are required by an audiologist. Can get expensive.

Both types can have multiple drivers. The Customs will always be more expensive due to the vendor molding the shells to your ear canal. Universals have better re-sale value.. and customs require re-molds.

There are ONLY TWO means of getting the signal to your IEM's

• Wired
• Wireless

Within the "wired" category there are a plethora of approaches, options and approaches, but basically you are tethered to an audio source. That can be direct off the console, or merged thru a headphone amp with your direct bass signal, or.... These are build-your own systems. If you do this, make sure you have a limiter (to protect your ears) somewhere in the signal chain.
With wireless, the upper end units (Senn G3, Shure PSM900, PSM1000) provide better audio and signal quality and have built-in adjustable limiters on the receivers. Set and forget.
Mount the transmitter in the console rack, power up the receiver.. Off you go. Other than battery management, very little hook up.