Couple More Practical IEM Q's

[pfschim]

There's not really much to be confused about.
50,000 ft level.. If you have specific questions, I'll do my best answer them.

There are ONLY TWO types of IEM..

• Universals - generic fit that come with a range of tips to fit your ear canal. The "cheaper" approach
• Customs - custom molded (usually hypo-allergenic acrylic shells) where ear impressions are required by an audiologist. Can get expensive.

Both types can have multiple drivers. The Customs will always be more expensive due to the vendor molding the shells to your ear canal. Universals have better re-sale value.. and customs require re-molds.

There are ONLY TWO means of getting the signal to your IEM's

• Wired
• Wireless

Within the "wired" category there are a plethora of approaches, options and approaches, but basically you are tethered to an audio source. That can be direct off the console, or merged thru a headphone amp with your direct bass signal, or.... These are build-your own systems. If you do this, make sure you have a limiter (to protect your ears) somewhere in the signal chain.
With wireless, the upper end units (Senn G3, Shure PSM900, PSM1000) provide better audio and signal quality and have built-in adjustable limiters on the receivers. Set and forget.
Mount the transmitter in the console rack, power up the receiver.. Off you go. Other than battery management, very little hook up.

thanks! do you need to have a dedicated AUX/mon out on the board for your wireless transmitter unit ?
I work in several bands that have their own PA. Some use pretty decent gear, some use somewhat basic gear with limited AUX/mon mixes (2).
I have access to all of the bands PA gear, so I could work this out.
The other situation where I might use IEM's is when I sub (which is reasonable often). I have noticed that some of the bands I regularly sub with do have some members on IEM's.

 

[s0c9]

thanks! do you need to have a dedicated AUX/mon out on the board for your wireless transmitter unit ?
I work in several bands that have their own PA. Some use pretty decent gear, some use somewhat basic gear with limited AUX/mon mixes (2).
I have access to all of the bands PA gear, so I could work this out.
The other situation where I might use IEM's is when I sub (which is reasonable often). I have noticed that some of the bands I regularly sub with do have some members on IEM's.

Do you need to have a dedicated AUX/mon out on the board for your wireless transmitter unit ? - YES ! And if you want stereo IEM's you will need two! This is much easier to do with a digital console, but with analog, you can get a "console" mix of one AUX, then feed your bass into the other "side" (direct out or channel insert?) and blend the two.
I work in several bands that have their own PA. Some use pretty decent gear, some use somewhat basic gear with limited AUX/mon mixes (2). - might be problematic in this scenario?
The other situation where I might use IEM's is when I sub (which is reasonable often). I have noticed that some of the bands I regularly sub with do have some members on IEM's. - some of those folks might be able to help you out and make some recommendations. Talk with them.. But.. if you GO down the IEM route.. wired, wireless, customs or universal.. BUY SOME QUALITY MULTI-DRIVER buds !!!
Multiple drivers (at least 2, but 2 will work, tho' I recommend TRIPLES) for bass players is a starting point IME. This allows you to boost the low frequencies (LF) separately.. If you use single drivers... ear fatigue will happen faster and boosting LF can cause distortion and hasten ear fatigue..

 

[Scottkarch]

thanks! do you need to have a dedicated AUX/mon out on the board for your wireless transmitter unit ?
I work in several bands that have their own PA. Some use pretty decent gear, some use somewhat basic gear with limited AUX/mon mixes (2).
I have access to all of the bands PA gear, so I could work this out.
The other situation where I might use IEM's is when I sub (which is reasonable often). I have noticed that some of the bands I regularly sub with do have some members on IEM's.

It helps to allow you to have as much control as possible.. But I've seen people use the Rolls 351 Rolls Corporation - Real Sound - Image - PM351 You can take a shared IEM/aux mix, and add in your vocals and your bass to get a mix that has as much as your voice and bass as you want.. and mix in the shared aux to hear the rest of the band. I'm guessing that would be good enough for me, even though I'm used to my own custom mix from our Mackie DL1608.. I bet it would be fine since the most important levels are my vocals and my bass... then just a little of everything else.

 

[Scottkarch]

We have 4 mono mixes for the band members... 1 for guests, and we have 1 extra.. I might steal it to try and make a stereo mix for myself... but I'm so pleased with my custom mix, I don't ever notice while playing. If I went stereo once, I'd probably get spoiled with it. maybe if we upgrade to the DL32r

 

[s0c9]

We have 4 mono mixes for the band members... 1 for guests, and we have 1 extra.. I might steal it to try and make a stereo mix for myself... but I'm so pleased with my custom mix, I don't ever notice while playing. If I went stereo once, I'd probably get spoiled with it. maybe if we upgrade to the DL32r

Yeah, I managed with mono for a while.. not too hard to get used to, but IME requires better control over mix levels as you cannot pan.
Stereo is great.. especially if you have multiples of the same instrument on stage, like guitar. Pan left or right based on stage location.. Same with vox !!

 

[Slough Feg Bass]

I played with some folks who all used IEM's for a little while.
They really seemed to like it a lot, but they always took a lot of time messing with things at rehearsal and at soundcheck.
They were always really into how things sounded in THEIR ears.
I was a bit more concerned about how things sounded in the FOH.
I opted not to use them, and everything was fine, I could hear everything just dandy.

Not sure if this answers your question, but my experience is that you can hear everything on stage just fine without IEM's. Now if you are singing a lot, and they ONLY use IEM's and no monitors or side fills, that is a different story.

 

[g4string]

talkback mic for commo, mixed solely to the aux sends. some drummers I know use them for counting off songs and what not. i've also seen a talkback in the center of the stage as well they make have foot switches for this purpose to turn them off/on so you don't get ambient bleed. also, i think there is a switch that will take a mic routed to FOH and allow it to switch back and forth between FOH and talkback. tell your drummer to get a tama rhythm watch. you can store a whole shows worth of tempos in this thing.....or find an app where you can playlist your tempos. hell, put a click track in your aux sends for crying out loud. with modern technology, there is ZERO reason for any drummer to need to take tempo cues from any other band member. get his butt in a click asap.

 

[g4string]

lastly, i keep my transmitter on top of my amp when i play. i do not rack it. i want to be the one responsible transporting and packing my own gear. as far as a sub back up rig, get this, LD Systems HPA 1. its great!. its a wired pack from LD Systems. It has a built in limiter which is really nice. sounds great too. runs off 9v battery. about 120usd after the exchange rate. as far as i know, this is not available stateside yet. again, your sub will be wired....and he'll need his own buds.....but at least he won't have to worry about a not having a pack. lastly, this is a good back up in case your wireless rig takes a dump. i had a gig in lubbock where my wired system could not find a signal. i forgot this piece of gear. i had to use wedges. it sucked. i couldn't hear myself the entire night.

LD Systems HPA 1

 

[EastCoastThump]

There are ONLY TWO types of IEM..

• Universals - generic fit that come with a range of tips to fit your ear canal. The "cheaper" approach
• Customs - custom molded (usually hypo-allergenic acrylic shells) where ear impressions are required by an audiologist. Can get expensive.

Both types can have multiple drivers. The Customs will always be more expensive due to the vendor molding the shells to your ear canal. Universals have better re-sale value.. and customs require re-molds.

Yes to all of this, w/ the addition of DIY customs. The two basic approaches are DIY putty packed around a set of universal buds (no audiologist visit involved, using Sugru or shooter's putty, total cost only about $20 more than whatever buds you use), or else DIY poured acrylic shells using audiologist's impressions (starts to make sense if you'll make multiple sets for yourself or your band; as a one-off probably no cheaper than commercially made customs).

 

[pglaser01]

I played with some folks who all used IEM's for a little while.
They really seemed to like it a lot, but they always took a lot of time messing with things at rehearsal and at soundcheck.
They were always really into how things sounded in THEIR ears.
I was a bit more concerned about how things sounded in the FOH.
I opted not to use them, and everything was fine, I could hear everything just dandy.

Not sure if this answers your question, but my experience is that you can hear everything on stage just fine without IEM's. Now if you are singing a lot, and they ONLY use IEM's and no monitors or side fills, that is a different story.

And in 20 years after using IEMs...I'll be hearing everything just dandy!

 

[pglaser01]

Do you need to have a dedicated AUX/mon out on the board for your wireless transmitter unit ? - YES ! And if you want stereo IEM's you will need two! This is much easier to do with a digital console, but with analog, you can get a "console" mix of one AUX, then feed your bass into the other "side" (direct out or channel insert?) and blend the two.
I work in several bands that have their own PA. Some use pretty decent gear, some use somewhat basic gear with limited AUX/mon mixes (2). - might be problematic in this scenario?
The other situation where I might use IEM's is when I sub (which is reasonable often). I have noticed that some of the bands I regularly sub with do have some members on IEM's. - some of those folks might be able to help you out and make some recommendations. Talk with them.. But.. if you GO down the IEM route.. wired, wireless, customs or universal.. BUY SOME QUALITY MULTI-DRIVER buds !!!
Multiple drivers (at least 2, but 2 will work, tho' I recommend TRIPLES) for bass players is a starting point IME. This allows you to boost the low frequencies (LF) separately.. If you use single drivers... ear fatigue will happen faster and boosting LF can cause distortion and hasten ear fatigue..

Listen to soc9.

He has provided me and many, many others with previous wisdom regarding IEMs, and the best part about his advice....even if you don't really agree with it, he's probably tried it and can give you real world feedback on what happens .

 

[s0c9]

Listen to soc9.

He has provided me and many, many others with previous wisdom regarding IEMs, and the best part about his advice....even if you don't really agree with it, he's probably tried it and can give you real world feedback on what happens .

Thank you for the kind words..
I'm not an expert nor claim to be one.. Just trying to help folks over some of the hurdles (and expense) I've experienced over the last 8 yrs of being a weekend warrior going from wedges to IEM's!!

 

[s0c9]

Yes to all of this, w/ the addition of DIY customs. The two basic approaches are DIY putty packed around a set of universal buds (no audiologist visit involved, using Sugru or shooter's putty, total cost only about $20 more than whatever buds you use), or else DIY poured acrylic shells using audiologist's impressions (starts to make sense if you'll make multiple sets for yourself or your band; as a one-off probably no cheaper than commercially made customs).

Thanks.. I forgot those!

 

[sawzalot]

I set up two small-diaphragm condenser mics on either side of the stage, pointing at the audience, and they feed only into our IEMs (which we run in stereo). They serve two purposes: one is to give us a "live" feel of the room; the other is that they pick up even stuff behind them and we can hear ourselves talk, a little. Otherwise we'll pop an ear out.

Regarding the mix discussion--studio recording/mixing is all about making it perfect. Live it's about sound reinforcement, which is a totally different set of goals, starting with "do as little damage to the music as you can while making it incredibly loud, which inherently damages the music". You simply can't compare the two--live you've got a dozen live mics on stage, any of which might cause feedback, you've got the effects of the room to deal with, speakers of varying quality from utter crap to really good--but none of them have the full frequency response you'll find in a studio recording, etc, etc, etc.

Basically if you look at the crowd and they're dancing and having a good time, your mix is just fine.

Tom

 

[musicman7722]

1) How do you communicate with the other musicians, while luxuriating in your IEM paradise? For example, if I want to tell the drummer to slow down, pick it up, or bring it down (a few common comm bytes); do cats use hand signals or something? How does that work? Learn to read lips?

2) Do I need to be thinking about getting a matching transmitter rack unit to use if I go do fill in gigs with another band, which is also IEM? Or do you unrack your transmitter from the band rack to go do those gigs? How does that work? I can see issues with tearing into the band rack.

3) And, related to #2, what happens when another musician comes in to do a fill in? Do they have to have their own IEM system, or does the band supply that for them? We've got a drummer lined up to sub for us on an upcoming gig; but, I'm pretty sure he doesn't have IEM gear.

Thanks in advance for your thoughtful input. Still on the learning curve.

I use a talk back mike through a spare channel in the board They can all hear me though of course all they can do is nod they can't talk back. I kind a like that

 

[pudgychef]

Our system is to step towards his kit or get into his field of vision. Because it is almost always about tempo. I raise my head to signal faster or lower it to signal slower

This is what most bands I have been in do.

 

[bucephylus]

I set up two small-diaphragm condenser mics on either side of the stage, pointing at the audience, and they feed only into our IEMs (which we run in stereo). They serve two purposes: one is to give us a "live" feel of the room; the other is that they pick up even stuff behind them and we can hear ourselves talk, a little. Otherwise we'll pop an ear out.

Regarding the mix discussion--studio recording/mixing is all about making it perfect. Live it's about sound reinforcement, which is a totally different set of goals, starting with "do as little damage to the music as you can while making it incredibly loud, which inherently damages the music". You simply can't compare the two--live you've got a dozen live mics on stage, any of which might cause feedback, you've got the effects of the room to deal with, speakers of varying quality from utter crap to really good--but none of them have the full frequency response you'll find in a studio recording, etc, etc, etc.

Basically if you look at the crowd and they're dancing and having a good time, your mix is just fine.

Tom

Thanks for your feedback. Pun not intended.

I get the ambient mic thing. Honestly, I could personally give a rip about the live feel of the room. I'm perfectly happy playing my parts listening to my mix. My concern about communicating with other band members in this particular band is mainly the drummer, who is young and a bit inexperienced, and doesn't always start tunes with the right tempos. Previous comments to put him on a click are noted.

Without the IEM system, I just always leaned over and gave the drummer a subtle verbal nudge in the proper direction (NOT leaping around the stage like some crazed lunatic etc etc. Sheesh). Or if a guitarist was not forward in the mix enough, e.g. ostinato part in Superstition, I might move over and say bring it up. That kind of thing. We maintain eye contact, and we used to verbally communicate mid-tune. Call out endings etc. I always thought communication, particularly in improvised or partially improvised music was a good thing. In this forum, I'm getting the clear message that approach is Neanderthal; though I have to say the vast majority of club acts on the Tucson scene are not on that same page. But, maybe, we are just backwards down here. Again, for cats playing gigs in slick road show outfits, where everything is wrote; that's a different situation than playing sports bars with local players, where the lineup may be changing and the tunes aren't always done the same way. Ergo, my Q's, which quite honestly keep getting answered for other contexts, for the most part.

This band had been using IEM's in a hybrid setup with amps for about the past year. There were inconsistencies in the system; but, it seemed interesting. Our last gig was in the club where we have been in regular rotation for the past several years, and I think we know it and the patrons pretty well. This was the first gig where we tried ampless, all IEM. Measuring effectiveness by dance floor population suggested significantly less energy being created in the house by FOH only. OK so we probably aren't using the system correctly, and it's a learning process. But, I actually don't think the mix was that far off and altogether to blame. The musician interactions went to zero, with everyone all in the ears; and that seemed a factor to me. I could be wrong.

I'm just looking at a crowd result I didn't like, trying to figure out how to correct it; and so, I've posted a couple of threads with what to me were reasonable questions, based on 5 decades of many different format gigs, here on TB; where, for the most part, we generally try to support each other. In this forum, I feel like I've defecated on the alter of the Vatican, and indicated I'm a moron for not knowing something. So, I'm inclined to just stop interacting in this forum and figure it all out on our own.

Carry on.

 

[denhou1974]

After getting accustomed to them you'll still be able to talk to people and hear them even if you're wearing IEMs. Plus you'll get some bleed through via the stage mics. I think the ambient mic thing is a crutch. I've never needed them but I think if you start with them then you'll always want them. I keep my IEMs in all night even during breaks and have no problems communicating. In fact, it's better to leave them in anyway because the break music is usually 500db!

I carry a 1/2 rack that has my IEM trans, wireless guitar trans, and a rack tuner (for small gigs since my combo rig doesn't have a tuner).

 

[Scottkarch]

Without the IEM system, I just always leaned over and gave the drummer a subtle verbal nudge in the proper direction (NOT leaping around the stage like some crazed lunatic etc etc. Sheesh). Or if a guitarist was not forward in the mix enough, e.g. ostinato part in Superstition, I might move over and say bring it up. That kind of thing. We maintain eye contact, and we used to verbally communicate mid-tune. Call out endings etc. I always thought communication, particularly in improvised or partially improvised music was a good thing. In this forum, I'm getting the clear message that approach is Neanderthal; though I have to say the vast majority of club acts on the Tucson scene are not on that same page. But, maybe, we are just backwards down here. Again, for cats playing gigs in slick road show outfits, where everything is wrote; that's a different situation than playing sports bars with local players, where the lineup may be changing and the tunes aren't always done the same way. Ergo, my Q's, which quite honestly keep getting answered for other contexts, for the most part.

Thanks for rephrasing your goal again, I think I understand your problem better now.
If you don't sing, get a mic and only feed it through the other players IEMs. Or maybe a small headset mic and a footswitch to turn it on to talk back to the band.. or whoever want's the audible cues. Cool thing about that would be that you don't even need eye contact. You could be making eye contact with the audience while still making an audible cue for the band. Mic on a stand with or without a footswitch. or a small headset mic with a footswitch to turn it on or off. Just make sure it's only in the IEMs and the audience won't hear it at all. Would that work?

 

[bucephylus]

Thanks for rephrasing your goal again, I think I understand your problem better now.
If you don't sing, get a mic and only feed it through the other players IEMs. Or maybe a small headset mic and a footswitch to turn it on to talk back to the band.. or whoever want's the audible cues. Cool thing about that would be that you don't even need eye contact. You could be making eye contact with the audience while still making an audible cue for the band. Mic on a stand with or without a footswitch. or a small headset mic with a footswitch to turn it on or off. Just make sure it's only in the IEMs and the audience won't hear it at all. Would that work?

Thanks. But, yes, I do sing.