Crossfire or Backline?

[Marley's Ghost]

I have noticed more bands with small to midsize PA support crossfiring their amps for better stage sound. I have discussed this with my bandmates and we are considering it for our next gig. Anyone else using this?

 

[JimmyM]

I've done it in the past, but I ultimately didn't like it because I have to play so quietly as not to annoy everyone else in the band. If I backline my amp, at least I can turn up to a decent level because it's not hitting everyone in the face.

 

[soulgaard1]

I had good experiences with doing it.
I only brought a smaller combo, that i could tilt upwards to where i was standing.
It could even be in front of me.
Soundguy loved it, i loved not having to haul big amps, and tilting the amp made shure i was the only one on stage getting blasted away.
Other bandmembers got bass from the monitors.
Would have been perfect - if didn't hate the sound of the small combo

 

[baba]

We do with some amps depending on the venue. We also occasionally tilt our deaf guitarists amp up in his face in front of him like a monitor. We always mic or DI everything so we move amps as needed.

 

[JKT]

IMHO, I think crossfiring or "sidefilling" stage amps works best with med to large PA's with a competent tech. The failsafe parameter from the way I see it is that unless you have a really big/loud rig, when the venue gets to be a certain size your rig is only benefitting you and the rest of the band anyway and so sidefilling can be great for you for sure and, if the rest of band is strung out on a big stage, they start to appreciate it also.

I see it done a fair amount and I think it would be done more if stage crews and players thought about it more often.

JKT

 

[JimmyM]

Bands used to do it all the time in the 80's when they didn't want to have amps visible onstage. Instead they'd have scenery and run the amps to the side. But if someone in the band is a volume freak, then running amps to the side is a bigger detriment than a help.

 

[ihateusernames]

we do it everywhere: indoors, outdoors, practice, large club, small club, roomy stage, cramped stage, large open halls - you get the idea. we don't do it to improve the sound field anywhere per se, simply for easier monitoring of one another and as an attempt to limit bleed over from destroying the foh mix and making too much work for the engineer. only practice, knowing your gear, and working together toward a common goal can improve the sound on stage.

crossfiring never hampers our performance while at the same time it minimizes the impact at foh when the guitars get blazing too freakin loud (which in turn causes me to unleash a beam of mid-range thick bass with snappy attack - i keep the low end rolled off quite a bit to not interfere with the foh - those subs destroy anything i could place on stage)

convincing the guitarists to crossfire was almost as hard as getting rid of a lead singer that didn't quite fit the band. it's hard to battle the classic vision in every musicians head of the big amp blasting through your body.

short of playing the really big shows (arenas, the big amphitheaters, mega outdoor festivals) - just about the only way it makes sense having amps set as a backline is angled toward the individual players sound stage with volume levels that allow for normal speaking while playing - all instruments minus drum kit through monitors. this requires far more discipline and willingness to produce a good club show than any musician i've ever worked with will accept (and i used to be a too loud guitarist)

my favorite benefit of crossfiring is the increased space on stage - we place our amps behind the mains stacks and wow does it open up some room to move. it also makes for easier setup and faster teardown as you have the ability to completely walk around the amps.

the only downfall for our group is the lead singer plays guitar as well and insists on not wearing earplugs. his cab is a 212. his hearing response is destroyed by soundcheck so the volume goes up to everything a 212 can deliver. it's only problematic for me when i step to my mic, about 25% of the songs. his amp is at chest to head level, about 4-10 feet away depending on the stage. even wearing earplugs it drowns out vocals in the monitors, the other guitarist across the stage, and my bass. i can still pick up some snare and cymbal from the other ear but as soon as my vocal line is done i'm back in my little cubby hole enjoying a perfect mix...i've ridden the band for too long to wear hearing protection and made no progress because 'no way man, i'm not looking like a dork on stage'. fortunately they get so wrapped up in being rockstars i can sneak over to the amps which is beside my rig, pretend i'm tweaking my amp and back off the volume on the guitar a hair.

trust me, if we were running as a backline set up there would be nowhere to hide from this guitar and the audience would avoid 2/3 of the room because of the beaming and terrible mix in front of the guitar. the lead guitarist has moved to an open back cab which is great - he can hear himself anywhere he stands in relationship to his amp which allows him to run at much more tolerable levels.

of course, this is all imho - the result of 20 years playing in and watching club bands sometimes butcher and sometimes master live sound. ymmv - just figure out what works best for the boneheads, er bandmates you play with, the engineer you work with, the rig he provides, and the places you play.

 

[amos]

I've always wanted to try this but haven't because my guitar player would require to much convincing. Ever since I realized how bad guitar cabs beam straight ahead and how I thought it was dumb that I had to put my guitarist through a monitor to hear him well enough (he uses a 4x12). The other reason I wanted to try it is the place we play the most often has one of the beefiest PA's in town.

 

[ihateusernames]

4x12's are the worst - they are always on the floor, aimed straight at a guitar player's backside (and the cute girl sitting in the worst possible seat, about 30-40 feet away, about to encounter permanent hearing damage) they goose the low end because they set their tone up in the back yard/garage because that sounded good by themselves from about 50 feet. totally mucks up the entire sound stage. they 'need' high power to hear themselves and even then they can't hear themselves so just keep turning up and scooping the mids.

you can still crossfire yourself, eventually maybe they'll catch on after being crushed on stage with midrange from the bass player hehe. have the guitar player sit on the floor in front of his amp during sound check, about 20 feet or so away. that'll get his attention. (problem is he'll say that sounds great, how can i hear it like that when i'm standing then keep turning up)

 

[amos]

4x12's are the worst - they are always on the floor, aimed straight at a guitar player's backside (and the cute girl sitting in the worst possible seat, about 30-40 feet away, about to encounter permanent hearing damage) they goose the low end because they set their tone up in the back yard/garage because that sounded good by themselves from about 50 feet. totally mucks up the entire sound stage. they 'need' high power to hear themselves and even then they can't hear themselves so just keep turning up and scooping the mids.

you can still crossfire yourself, eventually maybe they'll catch on after being crushed on stage with midrange from the bass player hehe. have the guitar player sit on the floor in front of his amp during sound check, about 20 feet or so away. that'll get his attention. (problem is he'll say that sounds great, how can i hear it like that when i'm standing then keep turning up)

You know I think that's why I have to put him through my monitor. It's because when he setup his amp, he did it in our 10x10 rehearsal box, and it sounds way better in there than it does on stage.

 

[Marley's Ghost]

+1 on 4x12's. We have two guitar gods with them , and when the room is fairly empty (very early and very late) they annihilate the audience. So the lead singer and I are hoping crossfire is going to help.

 

[ihateusernames]

you can open up their cab and disable the bottom two and one of the top speakers too hehe. that's all they need, a single 12 and tilted back even more than the slant front. aimed right at their melon.

 

[jaywa]

4x12 guitar cabs suck and most of the time are total overkill and are more guitarists "compensating" for other shortcomings than anything else. In so many bands I have found that with guitarists, as with drummers, the smaller the gear the better the player.

For example, the lead player in my band has a little 15-watt Fender with a single 10-inch speaker. We close-mic it, run it through the PA and he is a great player and his tone just KILLS. Just from that one little combo amp. Meanwhile our other guitarist has this big, godawful heavy Peavey 2x12 combo that gets ripping loud but sounds like total garbage and usually gets gradually pulled out of the house mix as the night goes along and he keeps turning up on stage. So there you go.

 

[JimmyM]

4x12 guitar cabs suck and most of the time are total overkill and are more guitarists "compensating" for other shortcomings than anything else. In so many bands I have found that with guitarists, as with drummers, the smaller the gear the better the player.

For example, the lead player in my band has a little 15-watt Fender with a single 10-inch speaker. We close-mic it, run it through the PA and he is a great player and his tone just KILLS. Just from that one little combo amp. Meanwhile our other guitarist has this big, godawful heavy Peavey 2x12 combo that gets ripping loud but sounds like total garbage and usually gets gradually pulled out of the house mix as the night goes along and he keeps turning up on stage. So there you go.

I hear ya...I just got a little Airline combo from 1962 that does 15w into a 12". I turn it down for clean and up for dirty, and it's never obnoxiously loud. I also have a 73 Super Reverb, but at 45w, even that's too much sometimes.

 

[ihateusernames]

no joke, one of the best sounding guitar amps in my collection - a Fender Mini Twin yep, the looks like a gimmicky toy sounds really, really good.

 

[jaywa]

My opinion, with even a half-decent P.A. and monitors no guitarist should ever need more than 50 watts onstage. Ever.

Bass of course is a totally different story.

 

[JKT]

I hear ya...I just got a little Airline combo from 1962 that does 15w into a 12". I turn it down for clean and up for dirty, and it's never obnoxiously loud. I also have a 73 Super Reverb, but at 45w, even that's too much sometimes.

Amazing that so many git players don't get the whole power relationship thing. I just recently played live with a pretty famous session player who was using a 14watt amp. Switchable down to 8 watts.

The sound guys were asking him to turn down.

His guitar sound was so good it literally hurt-like your first girlfriend breaking up with you.

JKT

 

[JimmyM]

LOL...like your first girlfriend breaking up with you...HAHAHAHA!!! Well my Airline doesn't sound quite that good (especially with my bad playing), but I think that may be because I cheaped out on the speaker (Jensen Mod).

 

[JKT]

LOL...like your first girlfriend breaking up with you...HAHAHAHA!!! Well my Airline doesn't sound quite that good (especially with my bad playing), but I think that may be because I cheaped out on the speaker (Jensen Mod).

Really, it was off the hook. Like nothing I had heard before, And I've heard a few rigs in my time. And the guitar player in my regular band was playing next to me and hearing it too. It's ruined him. And he has a great sound.

This guy was using a boutique rig called a "Carr" amplifier. Point to point soldering, switchable pentode,etc. The model was called a "Rambler"
I can still hear it.

JKT

 

[amos]

4x12 guitar cabs suck and most of the time are total overkill and are more guitarists "compensating" for other shortcomings than anything else. In so many bands I have found that with guitarists, as with drummers, the smaller the gear the better the player.

For example, the lead player in my band has a little 15-watt Fender with a single 10-inch speaker. We close-mic it, run it through the PA and he is a great player and his tone just KILLS. Just from that one little combo amp. Meanwhile our other guitarist has this big, godawful heavy Peavey 2x12 combo that gets ripping loud but sounds like total garbage and usually gets gradually pulled out of the house mix as the night goes along and he keeps turning up on stage. So there you go.

I totally agree. I bought a Peavey Valveking 2x12 combo, probably the same one your guitarist had; what a mistake that thing was. I now understand more about guitar amplification. My thread about 4x12s:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=459370&goto=newpost