curious. Why does Fender sell the Jaco Pastorius bass with flatwound strings?

[luciens]

This is why we intonate fretless basses just the same as fretted basses when changing string gauge or type. Just set the saddles back further and voila, it's in tune again at proper 34" scale length.

No, that's not what we do. Nobody who actually knows their instrument blindly wrenches on their bridges like that when they fit flats to their FL bass. Instead, we play it for a couple of tunes and, recognizing the smallness of the change, we simply note that the issue "heals itself", via our normal intonation skills. No tools required, just a little practice.

L

 

[Phaidrus]

Fender also sell a "JOE STRUMMER 13' INSTRUMENT CABLE" in "Drab Green" so that people can "Celebrate Joe Strummer's unparalleled style and substance with his signature "Know Your Rights" cable." So a Jaco Jbass with rounds is a minor misdemeanor in comparison.

Invalid Link Removed

 

[dkelley]

No, that's not what we do. Nobody who actually knows their instrument blindly wrenches on their bridges like that when they fit flats to their FL bass. Instead, we play it for a couple of tunes and, recognizing the smallness of the change, we simply note that the issue "heals itself", via our normal intonation skills. No tools required, just a little practice.

L

oh, is THAT what we do? Huh. I guess adjusting the intonation to be correct on my fretless basses, so they are exactly correct for the 34" scale length, when I change to a new gauge of strings or type of strings, is incorrect, because obviously I don't know my instrument.

The logic of your statement is flawed. You claim that if you know your instrument, then you know that, if you change your strings in a way that alters the intonation of the strings so they no longer exactly match the scale length of the instrument, then now you have to constantly adjust your playing to be in tune. You must relearn your instrument, and compensate constantly for the change until it has become second nature. And of course, the amount that you have to adjust is slightly different for every single note you play on your instrument, math being what it is, which makes the learning process challenging if you care about being exactly in tune.

So your claim is illogical. In reality, logic states that "if you know your instrument, and you have the very simple ability to adjust the instrument so any change in strings results in no change to the playing of the instrument to be perfectly in tune, then you make those simple adjustments."

Why relearn your instrument? It is a simple solution, and standard recommended step for all bassists with intonating bridges, by turning a single screw, often, or loosening one or two hex keys and then turning a single screw for each string.

Do you seriously not spend the 5 minutes it takes to adjust the intonation on your instrument if you change gauge or string technology enough that it no longer plays perfectly in tune at the exact finger placement you already learned on your instrument?

Of course we can learn to play the instrument differently with different intonation. But that goes against your premise that "Nobody who actually knows their instrument blindly 'WRENCHES AWAY ON THEIR BRIDGE LIKE THAT'".... since what I explained, a simple intonation adjustment done by ear quickly, makes your entire workaround for not bothering to intonate the instrument, which as you explain it amounts to relearning how to play in tune, moot.

 

[dkelley]

Flats are standard for fretless basses. You can use rounds, but flats are "normal."

flats are not standard for fretless basses, from my personal experience. I've always used rounds, jaco always used rounds, and lots of bassists always use rounds on fretless. Flats are standard on hollowbody electric basses, and it seems like a fairly even split on fretless between those who prefer and use rounds and those who use flats, from my personal experience (Which obviously isn't all encompassing).

Of brand new stock fretless basses I've played in stores off the rack over the past 4 decades, most of them came with rounds, not flats, from the factory. Although that's, again, hardly proving anything... just a small sample. But it's enough to convince me that flats aren't standard but, at most, from my personal hands on experience, actually used less often than rounds.

 

[luciens]

oh, is THAT what we do? Huh. I guess adjusting the intonation to be correct on my fretless basses, so they are exactly correct for the 34" scale length, when I change to a new gauge of strings or type of strings, is incorrect, because obviously I don't know my instrument.

If you can't play your fretless bass with properly controlled intonation, that's your fault. Not the bass's fault. If you can't intonate notes on your bass after fitting a set of flats to it, and take a wrench to it instead to try to "fix" it, you just simply don't know your instrument. You are responsible for the intonation of your notes on the fretless bass, not your bridge or your strings.

L

 

[2F/2F]

flats are not standard for fretless basses, from my personal experience. I've always used rounds, jaco always used rounds, and lots of bassists always use rounds on fretless. Flats are standard on hollowbody electric basses, and it seems like a fairly even split on fretless between those who prefer and use rounds and those who use flats, from my personal experience (Which obviously isn't all encompassing).

Of brands new stock fretless basses I've played in stored over the past 4 decades, most of them came with rounds, not flats, from the factory. Although that's, again, hardly proving anything... just a small sample. But it's enough to convince me that flats aren't standard but, at most, from my personal hands on experience, actually used less often than rounds.

My experience playing fretless since 1988 is exactly the opposite. I have come across literally a handful of brand new fretless basses in the store with rounds on them. And they were all basses of "a newer style," shall we say.

When I say "standard" I mean OEM, from a commonly known company. People do indeed use all kinds of strings on them on the aftermarket, and I am not discussing what they do. But I have never played a brand new Fender fretless bass that had factory rounds on it.

FWIW, I played fretless exclusively from 1988 to 2007, and haven't been much into it since, so perhaps that tilt toward earlier years biases my experience here.

 

[packhowitzer]

There are those who are obsessed with "mint condition Fender"

Although roundwound wear is exaggerated,they don't want to try to sell a bass with fingerboard marks after in store customer demos.

After you buy it,you can do what you want.

Does anyone have any pics of legitmate fingerboard damage or excessive wear from using rounds? I play EB power slinkys on my 5 string fretless and the only evidence of wear is if the fingerboard is held in the just the right light, there is slight evidence of visible imprints from the ridges of the rounds. These imprints are probably on the order of 10,000ths of an inch deep. They are not detectable to the touch and only visible with a light shone on the board. I'd say it's similar to swirl marks on a gloss finish from a polishing cloth.

I expect the fingerboard to last me for decades of play and I easily expect it to be more than adequate to pass on to the next player after my final ticket gets punched.

So, does anybody have evidence of more severe damage? I'm genuinely curious. Thanks TB.

 

[dkelley]

If you can't play your FL bass in tune, that's your fault. Not the bass's fault. If you can't intonate notes on your bass after fitting a set of flats to it, and take a wrench to it instead, you don't know your instrument.

L

Completely illogical. I said "of course" you can relearn to play it in tune. BUT WHY RELEARN IT? WHY COMPENSATE FOR THE LAZINESS OF NOT SETTING IT UP PROPERLY? That is completely illogical and unprofessional.

I can play any bass in tune, but, as you stated, if you KNOW your instrument... which suggests that you are so used to playing it that you play in tune without thinking about it, they why would you knowingly skip the step that allows you to continue to play it perfectly in tune without thinking about it?

Do you not know how to intonate your basses? It is a very very fast step if you have a good enough ear to play fretless perfectly in tune.

 

[mikeswals]

All of the household name fretless players that pushed the fretless forward used rounds: Jaco, Mick, Percy, Tony, Pino.

 

[dkelley]

My experience playing fretless since 1988 is exactly the opposite. I have come across literally a handful of brand new fretless basses in the store with rounds on them. And they were all basses of "a newer style," shall we say.

When I say "standard" I mean OEM. People do indeed use all kinds of strings on them on the aftermarket, and I am not discussing what they do. I have never played a brand new Fender fretless bass that had factory rounds on it.

FWIW, I played fretless exclusively from 1988 to 2007, and haven't been much into it since, so perhaps that biases my experience here.

You and I have literally the identical experience, I too played fretless exclusively, professionally, from 1988 to roughly 2000, and we found difference experiences in stores, since what I explained clearly described OEM also.

Like I said, in my personal experience, which is probably playing 40 or 50 fretless basses OEM in various music stores around the continent, contained mostly rounds. Yours did not. That's how it works - I made sure to explain that it is a relatively small sample size, as is yours, since we are only individuals.

 

[2F/2F]

You and I have literally the identical experience, I too played fretless exclusively, professionally, from 1988 to roughly 2000, and we found difference experiences in stores, since what I explained clearly described OEM also.

Like I said, in my personal experience, which is probably playing 40 or 50 fretless basses OEM in various music stores around the continent, contained mostly rounds. Yours did not. That's how it works - I made sure to explain that it is a relatively small sample size, as is yours, since we are only individuals.

What brands are you talking about here?

 

[luciens]

Completely illogical.

No, completely true.

I said "of course" you can relearn to play it in tune.

... which you actually do every single time you play a note (with purposeful intonation) on the fretless bass. We went over this the last time.

BUT WHY RELEARN IT?

Because that's your full-time job on the fretless bass. No breaks, weekends or vacations. See above. The fretless bass isn't about just playing in tune. We went over this the last time too.

WHY COMPENSATE FOR THE LAZINESS OF NOT SETTING IT UP PROPERLY?

Fiddling with the bridge because you can't control your intonation is not "SETTING IT UP PROPERLY". That's actually the "LAZINESS" you're referring to here.

L

 

[dkelley]

What brands are you talking about here?

over 4 decades? I can't remember most, but some that stood out as awesome were Pedulla, yamaha, fender, larrivee, ibanez,

 

[2F/2F]

over 4 decades? I can't remember most, but some that stood out as awesome were Pedulla, yamaha, fender, larrivee, ibanez,

So, to clarify, you have played a Fender fretless bass with factory rounds on it?

 

[dkelley]

Does anyone have any pics of legitmate fingerboard damage or excessive wear from using rounds? I play EB power slinkys on my 5 string fretless and the only evidence of wear is if the fingerboard is held in the just the right light, there is slight evidence of visible imprints from the ridges of the rounds. These imprints are probably on the order of 10,000ths of an inch deep. They are not detectable to the touch and only visible with a light shone on the board. I'd say it's similar to swirl marks on a gloss finish from a polishing cloth.

I expect the fingerboard to last me for decades of play and I easily expect it to be more than adequate to pass on to the next player after my final ticket gets punched.

So, does anybody have evidence of more severe damage? I'm genuinely curious. Thanks TB.

I did, after roughly 12 years on the same fretless, finally have a couple notes that buzzed a bit on one string from playing rounds. repair would have been roughly a couple hundred bucks... so the price of decent fretwork.... although I ended up selling the bass instead since I'd played it just too many years and wanted a change.

That is my only experience with wear that actually was audible.

 

[dkelley]

So, to clarify, you have played a Fender fretless bass with factory rounds on it?

yes. Fender american precision fretless (edit: I recall this one well, it also was maple fingerboard, unlined, and felt coated, standard sunburst or at least that's what I called the black to red to sort of yellow flame paint), back around 1986 or 1987. All of the ones I mentioned came with rounds, not flats.

 

[2F/2F]

yes. Fender american precision fretless, back around 1986 or 1987. All of the ones I mentioned came with rounds, not flats.

Ah. OK.

 

[dkelley]

No, completely true.

... which you actually do every single time you play a note (with purposeful intonation) on the fretless bass. We went over this the last time.

Because that's your full-time job on the fretless bass. No breaks, weekends or vacations. See above. The fretless bass isn't about just playing in tune. We went over this the last time too.

Fiddling with the bridge because you can't control your intonation is not "SETTING IT UP PROPERLY". That's actually the "LAZINESS" you're referring to here.

L

You have proven that you entirely do not understand the basic steps of setting intonation on an electric bass, something that has been standard practice for all bassists for several decades. You also put blame on me for being apparently unable to play in tune, when I described EXACTLY the same scenario that you explained which happens when you don't correct the intonation adjustment on your bass when you change string gauge or type in a way that introduces inaccuracies into the tuning.

However, you choose to relearn the instrument, while I choose not to.

I never once said that I play out of tune or that you do. And thanks for all of the ridiculous assumptions and insults about my playing which you have no idea if you may or may not have heard over the years, but with two degrees in music performance and years of work as a session player, believe me, I play in tune and can adjust very quickly to a misadjusted instrument. I just don't make those adjustments unless necessary, since there is no reason to do so aside from laziness.

 

[dkelley]

Ah. OK.

Like I said, it is a personal, small sample size of one person's experience, and the same is true for yourself.

If I had gone by entirely my own experience in my first point about this, then I would have said that all fretless basses come with rounds except for one or two brands I have come across. But since I've met plenty of bassists like yourself who have found the opposite to be true, and plenty of others who have found the same thing that I have found, I concluded that it seems to be roughly even between those that have rounds and those that have flats, overall, both OEM and from personal choice of restringing.

It does defy the "flats are standard on fretless" point, though, imho. All good either way.

 

[packhowitzer]

I did, after roughly 12 years on the same fretless, finally have a couple notes that buzzed a bit on one string from playing rounds. repair would have been roughly a couple hundred bucks... so the price of decent fretwork.... although I ended up selling the bass instead since I'd played it just too many years and wanted a change.

That is my only experience with wear that actually was audible.

Thanks for the response. I certainly knew it was a thing. I've just never seen photos of what it looks like (although I guess if it's an audible issue, it won't matter too much what it looks like - you'll just know when you play it). There are a few worn fingerboard threads I've found here, but none of the ones I saw showed definitive damage. most were just "is this ok" type threads. Thanks again.