Custom Bass Situation - What's the policy?

[ibanezcollector]

Im up in the air now that the other side of the story is out..

Its nice that the luthier sent a refund and the neck and body which he didnt have to.

But on the other hand that doesnt make up for his mistake.


I call it a draw... No one won no one lost, a bit of bad publicity for the luthier seems like what he was trying to fix and I can understand that. But unfortunately that didnt work.

But me being in the same position as a one guy owner/builder if something were to happen to me I would be in the exact same situation how would I of handled it. Probably close to the same way.. What more could be done.

 

[James Hart]

it does 'suck in' so that's why you use grain filler.... takes a little bit more time but not 10 months more time.

right, lots of builders just use the finish as the grain filler... if that was done with Ash I can see the time (I've had similar waits with 2 none grain filled Ash basses)... especially considering the builder was suffering through health issues and stated he'd be working it 'as he could' do to his health.

That said, an opaque gloss black on ash should definitely have had some grain filler.

 

[ibanezcollector]

Black is the worst for any finisher myself included.. It will show any flaw anywhere if its alder or ash or western indian honduras swampy drift wood LOL..

I hate Black.. and Black with Swamp Ash is the worst.. One little pore not filled and its going to show.. I HATE BLACK...

 

[lethargytartare]

OP definitely should have posted the whole story here -- no doubt.

But he should also return the neck and body, or pay for them. Unless he can demonstrate how he was damaged by the delay, there's no real issue to remedy. It sucks, it's annoying, it's grossly unprofessional, but that's about it. Lots of custom arrangements still try to stick you with unrefundable fees -- like template charges -- but OP got those back too. He's entitled to a refund. If he fees he was also damaged, he should contact an attorney, or file a claim in small claims court.

My advice to the builder would be to invoice for the body and neck -- he may suck as a luthier (I have NO first hand knowledge), but he's entitled to a fair result too. And if it's true that the OP is still demanding more parts from the builder (something the builder claims in the other thread), he should cease that too -- my advice to the builder would be to report that as harrassment (to the police).

Thanks for posting your experience, and sorry it went so poorly! This is a great community to air and hash out disputes like this. I've seen it result in a positive result at least once before, believe it or not...

ltt

 

[BobXboB]

I'm posting this in the hopes that it will help others avoid the absolutely ridiculous 18 months I just endured dealing with a "luthier" who trolls these forums (and others) operating under the name of "HJC Customs" or JC Cagle. The only good thing that came out of the experience was that he refunded my money after I finally told him a year and a half was too long waiting for a simple body and neck. I was completely professional and understanding throughout all of our correspondence, and can reproduce/post nearly all of the communication we had over the last 18 months.

In April of 2006 I decided to design and have built a custom-shaped bass guitar. I contacted several bass builders on this forum, and eventually made a deal with JC to simply produce a neck and a body, a bone nut, and two plain pickguards. Now, 18 months later, after waiting since January of this year for the "finish to dry," I finally receive the instrument: No nut of any kind, no pickguards, and a strangely unfinished paint job that the builder claims took 10 months to "dry." (I asked only for glossy black on both the body and the neck).

The last few months of emails and phone conversations I've had with this man have been trials of patience: half a dozen different excuses on why the paint wasn't dry after 10 months, why he wasn't able to work on it, why I was "as much to blame as he was" - while simultaneously bragging about the number of different projects he'd been accepting during the course of the year.

I'm sure he'll read this, and I'm sure he'll have a rebuttal about how it's my fault for not knowing everything there is to know about bass luthiery before I hired him to build my project, or for thinking that 10 months is FAR too long for a finish to be finished, but my ignorance only accounts for a couple months of the process being slowed down. With the exception of his medical emergency over a year ago, the rest of it was his self-described "god-like ego" and penchant for making promise after promise and never delivering.

I'm sitting here looking at a bass neck with no nut, a body with only two holes drilled in the heel, and a finish that looks like it took maybe 3 days after he finally got fed up with hearing me politely ask why the finish was taking so long. Trying to blame a client for gross ineptitude and poor business management is the ultimate in unprofessional.

How are the body and neck? The neck is fine: Black gloss like I requested, clean frets. The finish is smooth and decent, but there are minute ripples in the black paint beneath, as though it were birdseye maple, but the birdseye is actually blemishes beneath the clear coat. And again, no natural bone nut, though he agreed to include it in the build.

The body shares the unfortunate birdseye look, but is generally well done. I haven't yet placed the pickups in their cavities, but perhaps I'll review it more as I get it completed.

Feel free to remove this if inappropriate. Apologies if it breaks any forum rules.

I found this rather deceptive that you left out you were refunded all your money before you received the work for free. IMO this thread title should be changed to customer nightmare. How can you complain about parts you didn't get after you were refunded in full? If you got all the parts you wanted would you actually pay something for them?

 

[MHensleyJr]

Anyone else notice how the OP hasn't replied lately? He's probably hanging his head in shame after it came out that the got refunded AND got to keep the parts...:scowl:

 

[BobXboB]

Anyone else notice how the OP hasn't replied lately? He's probably hanging his head in shame after it came out that the got refunded AND got to keep the parts...:scowl:

I might get in trouble for this but when I read posts here that have myspace links I check them out as it lets me know more about the poster personally. And when I hear emo...

 

[ZombiCrow]

I stated in the first paragraph that I was refunded my money, and for that I am thankful. It didn't just "come out," if you'll read the thread before posting. I considered paying the luthier what he was owed up until he sent me at least one nasty message (before this post was put up) and included another one in the packaging for the body. I also emailed the luthier with an alert that I made this post, only STATED that he left out several agreed-upon items, and requested nothing from him.

I have all of the photos he sent, including the ones documenting his difficulty getting the body shape correct due to my own drawing inexperience. However, those delays and his heart condition account for only the first 6-9 months of delay. The remaining 9 were a game of email-tag, wherein I often went for over a month+ with not a word from him on his progress.

I have every email exchange, as well, and whoever said that this began as a friendly and positive exchange is right: The luthier was nice, helpful, and understanding, and I was completely polite and patient during all of his health problems. How many of the emails would you all like to see? Would you like me to post the last several where he began insulting me and chastizing me for asking about the status of my bass due to his lack of communication?

I just wanted to point out an experience I had, and let others know about the bad business practices this individual repeatedly carried out. (I actually got multiple emails from someone in Canada asking whether I'd heard from the luthier, or was in contact with him, because he hadn't heard anything from him for months either, but that's a different story, I'm sure).

PS: When someone starts throwing around "genres" like he knows what he's talking about, it lets everyone around him know more about him personally. :/

 

[lethargytartare]

None of which justifies you keeping the body and neck that you haven't paid for, and also asking for more, or subtly implying that he should send you more parts or materials for free (however you want to characterize it).

The negative responses you're getting are stemming from the fact that, yes, you had a bad experience, but you also got something virtually noone gets -- you got all of your money back and then a buch of free stuff, and you're still acting outraged.

Again, I don't know the luthier, but I can say that it's noteworthy when someone goes above and beyond in attempting to make up for their own failure. And by your description, that's what he did. He may have pissed and moaned, and even been rude (you can post those messages if anyone doubts you on that point) but he DID leave you more than you started with (if the body and neck are useable, then you have a LOT more than you started with). THEN, you posted your experience here under the heading "Custom Nightmare"?? That's what some people find disjointed -- you got a windfall and called it a nightmare -- and that's why you're getting some negative responses.

What I'm most curious to know:

Did he OFFER to give you the partially finished work as an apology; did he offer after the refund and further exchanges? or did you ask for the partially completed work? Etc. People may respond differently if they think you are entitled to the free stuff you got, but based on the info that is currently available, it doesn't appear that way.

ltt

I stated in the first paragraph that I was refunded my money, and for that I am thankful. It didn't just "come out," if you'll read the thread before posting. I considered paying the luthier what he was owed up until he sent me at least one nasty message (before this post was put up) and included another one in the packaging for the body. I also emailed the luthier with an alert that I made this post, only STATED that he left out several agreed-upon items, and requested nothing from him.

I have all of the photos he sent, including the ones documenting his difficulty getting the body shape correct due to my own drawing inexperience. However, those delays and his heart condition account for only the first 6-9 months of delay. The remaining 9 were a game of email-tag, wherein I often went for over a month+ with not a word from him on his progress.
...

 

[Phil Mailloux]

I might get in trouble for this but when I read posts here that have myspace links I check them out as it lets me know more about the poster personally. And when I hear emo...

PS: When someone starts throwing around "genres" like he knows what he's talking about, it lets everyone around him know more about him personally. :/

LOL, pwnd!

 

[ZombiCrow]

I have the email in which he plainly stated that he would send me the neck and body, free of charge, refund my money, and afterward I could "do as I pleased," due to the amount of time he took completing the project. I was initially going to send him at least the shipping for the project, and the majority of what I'd paid him already, but his change in attitude over the past several months really turned me away from that idea.

Again, I never demanded anything from him after I received the instrument. I never even politely asked for it. I simply stated that he didn't include all the small things he agreed to, and that I was going to talk about it here.

And for those who didn't read the other thread, JC Customs was sent an email regarding this issue due to my own mistake of naming HJC as JCCustoms. My apologies to JC Customs for tarnishing his reputation, and I have edited the initial post where I mentioned his name to reflect the truth. Again, sorry for the mistake.

 

[john turner]

What's the policy around here on posting about negative experiences with "luthiers" building a custom bass body and neck? I don't want to get banned for trying to warn others of bad business practices and immature individuals making dozens of promises and keeping nearly none.

Thanks.

a factual representation of the events in question is fine - personal attacks should not be mentioned, and keep the comments to events that you personally experienced.

 

[MHensleyJr]

And for those who didn't read the other thread, JC Customs was sent an email regarding this issue due to my own mistake of naming HJC as JCCustoms. My apologies to JC Customs for tarnishing his reputation, and I have edited the initial post where I mentioned his name to reflect the truth. Again, sorry for the mistake.

Dude, that's a pretty f-ed up mistake if you ask me...

Keeps getting better and better.

 

[DanielleMuscato]

Interesting thread. I have been watching it but haven't really had anything to add. My experience with J.C. was posted earlier by another TBer.

In my opinion, J.C. is a nice guy but seems to have trouble keeping his commitments as far as a time-frame.

As mentioned, there were also some measurement problems with my bass (intonation is un-usably off despite two pro setups (filing the nut, etc), inlays are off-center, thumbrest is too short), making it unusable for me.

Interestingly, I've found that by tuning up the bass to D (it's a five-string, so D-G-C-F-Bb) the intonation actually is spot-on.

It has some other problems: The nut wasn't glued in (or not enough glue) & falls right out when there are no strings on it; you can't access the truss rod without removing the neck (although I guess you could say that's a personal preference); the neck profile dimensions are not what I asked for, even though I sent extremely specific numbers by measuring the neck of my MTD with calipers (although the shape he did instead is pretty comfortable anyway, so it doesn't bother me that much), etc.

If I could get the intonation to work with a standard 5-string tuning, I would probably use the bass often. As-is, I haven't used it since I got it back from him a year ago.

Last December, I got an email from someone claiming to be another customer of J.C. I will be the first to admit that this is complete hearsay and I have no way of knowing if this is true or not, so keep this in mind when reading it, but here it is anyway:

Hello, this message is for Mr. Dave Muscato.

My name is [name removed], I was doing business with Mr. Harold (JC) Cagle. I'm living a nightmare actually doing business with him!

Do you have any problem doing business with him?

Feel free to answer, Thanks for your time and help!

[name removed]

I wrote him back with my experience, and he responded:

Sorry to hear that you have problems too,

i'm a kinesitherapist and i study and design ergonomics instruments, i asked JC to build me 4 instruments. I got the first one after 4 months instead of 6 weekd. I paid the other 3 and never received them. He doesn't answer my emails and phone calls. He told me that the package were lost in the mail. He never provided any tracking number, any shipping bills, i think he kept all the wood and part that i ordered for him and never really build the instruments...

Thanks for your time.

[name removed]

Make of it what you will... Again, this was NOT my personal experience and I do not know if it's true or if it's only part of the story, but there it is.

J.C. was always nice to me when I ordered from him, just took a long time to get back to me. I wouldn't order from him again, but I wouldn't call him a nightmare or anything, lol.

 

[john turner]

Dude, that's a pretty f-ed up mistake if you ask me...



Keeps getting better and better.

stay on topic.

(not directed at you dave).

 

[grovest]

Sorry to hear about that, Zombi. I read the other thread. I'm with you.

 

[ZombiCrow]

Interesting thread. I have been watching it but haven't really had anything to add. My experience with J.C. was posted earlier by another TBer.

In my opinion, J.C. is a nice guy but seems to have trouble keeping his commitments as far as a time-frame.

As mentioned, there were also some measurement problems with my bass (intonation is un-usably off despite two pro setups (filing the nut, etc), inlays are off-center, thumbrest is too short), making it unusable for me.

Interestingly, I've found that by tuning up the bass to D (it's a five-string, so D-G-C-F-Bb) the intonation actually is spot-on.

It has some other problems: The nut wasn't glued in (or not enough glue) & falls right out when there are no strings on it; you can't access the truss rod without removing the neck (although I guess you could say that's a personal preference); the neck profile dimensions are not what I asked for, even though I sent extremely specific numbers by measuring the neck of my MTD with calipers (although the shape he did instead is pretty comfortable anyway, so it doesn't bother me that much), etc.

If I could get the intonation to work with a standard 5-string tuning, I would probably use the bass often. As-is, I haven't used it since I got it back from him a year ago.

Last December, I got an email from someone claiming to be another customer of J.C. I will be the first to admit that this is complete hearsay and I have no way of knowing if this is true or not, so keep this in mind when reading it, but here it is anyway:



I wrote him back with my experience, and he responded:



Make of it what you will... Again, this was NOT my personal experience and I do not know if it's true or if it's only part of the story, but there it is.

J.C. was always nice to me when I ordered from him, just took a long time to get back to me. I wouldn't order from him again, but I wouldn't call him a nightmare or anything, lol.

I received that same email at that same time, with the same story. Never heard anything afterward, however.

To JC's credit, I received an email from him today that was very polite in tone and completely unlike the two other notes he sent that seemed defensive and insulting.

 

[Phil Mailloux]

Last December, I got an email from someone claiming to be another customer of J.C. I will be the first to admit that this is complete hearsay and I have no way of knowing if this is true or not, so keep this in mind when reading it, but here it is anyway:

I wrote him back with my experience, and he responded:

Make of it what you will... Again, this was NOT my personal experience and I do not know if it's true or if it's only part of the story, but there it is.

J.C. was always nice to me when I ordered from him, just took a long time to get back to me. I wouldn't order from him again, but I wouldn't call him a nightmare or anything, lol.

That would be the same Canadian gentlemen that the OP posted about either in this thread or the other one. There was actually a similar thread as this one in the luthier's corner some months back about this. I believe the builder and customer reached an understanding at some point over this.

 

[Hughsie]

Reading both threads, I've got to go with the customer on this. Come on, we're talking about a year-and-a-half here!

After all was said and done, the luthier sending a refund and the incomplete project was a nice touch, but he seems to have undone that with the attitude in his comm's. I don't think there's any defense for this kind of practice, and ZombiCrow is doing the right thing by posting his experience here.

 

[ZombiCrow]

In the interest of fairness, after reading the comments in both threads, I have paid JC the $340 that he refunded me. The work he did is worth it, and with a few more weeks of routing and drilling it'll be quite the instrument indeed. Thanks for talking some reasonable sense into me, everyone.