Double Bass "Cutaway" Fingerboard Details - 5-String Bass?

[Pete G]

I just acquired a nice Elias 5-string that's going to get some work done on it.

One thing I've noticed is that the fingerboard extends all the way up to a fingered high D (on the G string), all the way across the fingerboard.

Even if I were Gary Karr or Edgar Meyer, I'm not sure I'd need that long a fingerboard, even on the G and D strings, let alone for the other strings. In other words, it looks like a bass that's crying out for a "cutaway" fingerboard to reduce mass and weight. (The fingerboard needs replacing anyway.)

Are there any standard practices recognized by luthiers on how one determines where to cut on a cutaway fingerboard? Or where to cut on a fingerboard for a 5-string bass?

Thanks!

 

[Kevin Hsieh]

doesn't upton make some pretty nice cutaway fingerboards? they come standard with their new basses.

i bet they make replacements
check it out
Invalid Link Removed
i think this is what you're looking for?

 

[robobass]

If you're going to replace the board anyway, and you say you don't really need the high notes, then why worry about a cutaway at all? Why not just focus on the other qualities you will want? I find that extreme high notes (at least on my instruments) don't really sound when fingered directly anyway. When I want them, I access them through natural or false harmonics.
Robobass

 

[Pete G]

I doubt I'll ever need to go up to the D (on G), but who knows? But say that I want to go to B. I imagine I'd at least like the option of crossing to the D string.

However, I doubt I'd ever need to cross in that position to the A, let alone the E or B.

Hence, the cutaway approach would provide the access needed to the high notes I might play, but not load the bass with unnecessary ebony weight for the fingerboard that otherwise would lie across from the B.

 

[robobass]

I have no problem with a cutaway, but you really don't know how your bass is going to respond to a new FB. In most cases, a new board of the most standard variety will give you a B (that's about the highest note I would ever finger). In my experience, replacing a thin board with a nice new thick one always improved the bass dramatically, but I never went for an ultra long one. There certainly must be some point of diminishing returns, but why not just install a standard FB that gives you your "B", and if you feel later that you've lost sound due to mass, have it cut down later? I bet that if the job is well done, you won't want to change a thing!
Just trying to help,
Robobass

 

[Silversorcerer]

I doubt I'll ever need to go up to the D (on G), but who knows? But say that I want to go to B. I imagine I'd at least like the option of crossing to the D string.

However, I doubt I'd ever need to cross in that position to the A, let alone the E or B.

Hence, the cutaway approach would provide the access needed to the high notes I might play, but not load the bass with unnecessary ebony weight for the fingerboard that otherwise would lie across from the B.

How do you know that the extra fingerboard weight is a problem? All the parts of a well set up bass are tuned. The tuning depends on the mass. If you cut off the board or even replace the board that will alter the FB tuning. That might negatively affect the response and tone of the bass. Be careful with what you are doing there.

 

[Pete G]

How do you know that the extra fingerboard weight is a problem? All the parts of a well set up bass are tuned. The tuning depends on the mass. If you cut off the board or even replace the board that will alter the FB tuning. That might negatively affect the response and tone of the bass. Be careful with what you are doing there.

It's not like I'd be going into a garage with a hacksaw or anything.

If I have this done, Mike Shank will do it, and if it's a bad idea, he'll talk me out of it. That's one reason I go to Mike.

 

[Silversorcerer]

It's not like I'd be going into a garage with a hacksaw or anything.

If I have this done, Mike Shank will do it, and if it's a bad idea, he'll talk me out of it. That's one reason I go to Mike.

Several players seem to like the extensions, and yes, you seem to know where you want it and where you don't want it. Personally, for those notes way up in the stratosphere, I just hit them with harmonics like robobass. Of course my board is not extended so I don't have that choice to make either, but I'm on the harmonics before the length stops. I also use the nice straight end of the board to guestimate where to find the harmonics, so that part of the board I don't stop notes on is still useful as a reference. And sometimes I tap / slap / hit that part of the board for the percussive effect, so I like having the wood there.

If you know what you want and you anticipate changing the board further along, can't see why talking to Mike Shank about it could hurt. It's totally a personal preference issue, but still, cutting off the wood will change the resonance frequency of the FB. You could add some weight behind the board to make up for that or have Mike do that as well, or you could just get a new board fitted cut to your preference and that might save you a little down time getting it all done at once.

 

[rgarcia26]

I don’t want to hijack the thread but I got a question about mine, reading Traeger; he said that the FB should not be longer that C note on the G string for Jazz or B natural for classic Music... mine said my Teacher said is an E...

There are real benefits to cut of the excess?

I like the Cut ways… I just don’t want to go happy trigger cutting more than I should

Opinions

 

[james condino]

In general I find two types of people who have elongated fingerboards with some sort of "style points" type cutaway thingy on the end:

1) People who know exactly what notes they want to be able to reach and why

2) People who don't and do it mainly because they think it looks cool and will somehow make them use the notes up in that range.

There are too many variables to be able to come up with a definitive answer on how your bass will be affected. Some will show inprovement with less / more fingerboard, others will decrease. You need to be the one to man up on the decision, take responsibility for your own choices, and live with it. Anyone who tells you they can accurately predict the end result is selling snake oil. Every bass is different.

I'm realistically in category 2. I've got an elongated "Edgar" style fingerboard on my current bass and I've gotta agree with Robo- I had a nice oversized ebony board and thought it would be great, but....I generally use the harmoncs more than anything in that range. In fact, the elongated fingerboard actually gets in the way at times. I've been wanting to cut it off for about a year, but always seem to have some other bass taking up the workbench, so I just grab it as is and head to the gig. When I want the super high notes, I bring my mandolin...

j.
www.condino.com
www.kaybassrepair.com

 

[rgarcia26]

In general I find two types of people who have elongated fingerboards with some sort of "style points" type cutaway thingy on the end:

1) People who know exactly what notes they want to be able to reach and why

2) People who don't and do it mainly because they think it looks cool and will somehow make them use the notes up in that range.

There are too many variables to be able to come up with a definitive answer on how your bass will be affected. Some will show inprovement with less / more fingerboard, others will decrease. You need to be the one to man up on the decision, take responsibility for your own choices, and live with it. Anyone who tells you they can accurately predict the end result is selling snake oil. Every bass is different.

I'm realistically in category 2. I've got an elongated "Edgar" style fingerboard on my current bass and I've gotta agree with Robo- I had a nice oversized ebony board and thought it would be great, but....I generally use the harmoncs more than anything in that range. In fact, the elongated fingerboard actually gets in the way at times. I've been wanting to cut it off for about a year, but always seem to have some other bass taking up the workbench, so I just grab it as is and head to the gig. When I want the super high notes, I bring my mandolin...

j.
www.condino.com
www.kaybassrepair.com

I must somewhere between the 2nd and some other choice... I like the looks of the cut way, but my concern is to have my DB as ship shape as I can.. if the couple extra notes dont affect It, I think for the time being its ok to have an E super high even when I may never play... you know Traeger for him everything with extra weight stop the bass for achieving the optimal sound... but on the other hand cutting it and giving it a nice cut way cut doesn’t sound like it will destroy the sound of a DB

 

[PaulCannon]

Quite a lot of solo literature goes to at least a D, and I would generally rather close the notes than play harmonics. It's an entirely different color, and most of the natural harmonics are out of tune.

Both of my basses have extended boards with cutaways. The big bass has an E and the smaller bass has an F. My thinking was that it would be nice to have at least a three-octave range in any key and more notes would mean more possibilities. The cutaway on the low side lets me play a little heavier on those strings, but I doubt the reduction in mass makes a significant difference in tone.

Take a good look at the repertoire you might want to play in your life. The Fauré Elegie, if played at pitch, reaches a high E-flat. The Bottesini b minor concerto has a high E which, in my opinion, sounds much better if it has some fingerboard under it (though it's often played as a harmonic). Many of Rabbath's etudes and concert pieces go to a D, as do the pieces written for him. The Carter Figment III has a high C-sharp which isn't going to work as a harmonic.

Also, it's generally easier to remove wood than to add it. If you're replacing the board and if it doesn't cost much extra for the longer one, start off with too much and see if it gets in your way. If it's done right, it shouldn't be an issue.

 

[RenanDias]

I am totally in 2nd category, with and extended fingerboard (play 90% jazz)
But I've found a good use for that: when playing pizzicato high notes on G and D string, with the elongated fingerboard the right hand can play on the edge of the fb and so get more sound from the high register. It does make a big difference on the attack profile and sustain of those high notes

 

[rgarcia26]

Thanks for your opinions now I am think I will hold on that

 

[uprightben]

I recently put a new fingerboard on my bass. I didn't use a fingerboard blank, I started with a big chunck of ebony, and it was longer than I needed. So I looked at pics of Edgar's fingerboard and cut the end like his, and I'm loving it so far. It goes up to about an F#, and I mostly us it to slide up and hit some stupid high note when I'm soloing with the bow. Kind of a gimmick, but it's a sound I've wanted to do ever since hearing Edgar do it and I'm glad to have it now. What an extension gives you is the notes in between the harmonics, which is useful if you want to use it to improvise.

If you want it, it is much easier to execute before it is glued onto the neck because you can cut it on the band saw.

 

[Big B.]

My fingerboard goes up to an F and I decided to make my own cutaway. Frankly the bass sounded exactly the same before and after. I do find the high notes to be useful. I like the sound quality of stopped notes in the upper register and by cutting back the lower part of the fingerboard it actually removed some string rattle against the end of the fingerboard, allowing me to get more volume out of the B string.

[/IMG]

Regarding the shape I just chose what I thought would like nice. I used a coping saw to cut that board and smoothed in out with sandpaper. I work with wood professionally and build guitars though so I feel more comfortable with the idea of cutting a bass.



Oddly enough the biggest difference I have noticed is how conductors look at you. One conductor in particular always seemed to dislike me and I finally.asked him about it after rehearsal one day and he said "You always play too.close to the fingerboard and I don't think you can get a proper sound playing that way." He pointed out that my stand partners bow was much closer to the bridge when he plays. Needless to say he was a bit embarrassed when I explained that his fingerboard stopped at B flat.Conductors seem to understand when they see the cutaway.

 

[rgarcia26]

My fingerboard goes up to an F and I decided to make my own cutaway. Frankly the bass sounded exactly the same before and after. I do find the high notes to be useful. I like the sound quality of stopped notes in the upper register and by cutting back the lower part of the fingerboard it actually removed some string rattle against the end of the fingerboard, allowing me to get more volume out of the B string.

[/IMG]

Regarding the shape I just chose what would like nice. I used a coping saw to cut that board and smoothed in out with sandpaper. I work with wood professionally and build guitars though so I feel more comfortable with the idea of cutting a bass.



Oddly enough the biggest difference I have noticed is how conductors look at you. One conductor in particular always seemed to dislike me and I finally.asked him about it after rehearsal one day and he said "You always play too.close to the fingerboard and I don't think you can get a proper sound playing that way." He pointed out that my stand partners bow was much closer to the bridge when he plays. Needless to say he was a bit embarrassed when I explained that his fingerboard stopped at B flat.Conductors seem to understand when they see the cutaway.

Nice job it looks great! Very long FB almost on top of the F-hole....

and do you use the markers??? are they permanent? do they help you???

 

[Big B.]

Nice job it looks great! Very long FB almost on top of the F-hole....

and do you use the markers??? are they permanent? do they help you???

I also installed the markers. They are mother of pearl dots and are permanent. They do help greatly. I have three dots marking the F,G, and A on the E string side of the fingerboard as well. Those I find most useful in low light areas such as orchestra pits. The markers in the upper register I also use very frequently.They can be helpful when performing classical works but I find they help more with improvising in the upper register.

That being said I learned with out dots and I would advise against adding them until you can play comfortably without them. I advocate using them as an aid for a performing musician but not as a crutch for a student.

 

[rgarcia26]

I also installed the markers. They are mother of pearl dots and are permanent. They do help greatly. I have three dots marking the F,G, and A on the E string as well. Those I find most useful in low light areas such as orchestra pits. The markers in the upper register I also use very frequently.They can be helpful when performing classical works but I find they help more with improvising in the upper register.

That being said I learned with out dots and I would advise against adding them until you can play comfortably without them. I advocate using them as an aid for a performing musician but not as a crutch for a student.

Thanks for clarifying my droughts