Double Bass D.O.A (TBDB?)

[Ed Fuqua]

I just checked over at Ken's joint, it doesn't seem to be that much livelier. But you can't compare the DB side with the BG side for just general activity numbers, that's like looking at the number of murders in Los Angeles and the number in Waycross GA. I doubt seriously that the OP has done the substantive analysis of comparing posts on the DB side by year, to illustrate this alleged "decline"; if so he should post those. All the analytics I can get to are for the site as a whole and show a site that is highly rated for viability and usage (high Alexa rating) and (good work admin Pawlie) a valuable commodity.

 

[TroyK]

I just did the same thing, went a checked Ken's site. I don't participate there, though I've had a few good dealings with Mr. Smith and respect him. I saw some familiar names and subjects there, but not a lot of volume. My guess is that is just fine with them. their signal to noise ratio is probably right where they want it and closer to where we would like for it to be here.

If you're new or "crossing over" and want discussion here to go like it does on the EBG, it's just not the right expectation

 

[sean_on_bass]

Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents as a newer member of this side of the forum:

Conversation is often time squelched when new players post questions. The most common answers are "get a teacher" or "use the search function."

While getting a teacher is great advice, that's a really annoying response to receive, and read over and over again. Instead, give some actually constructive advice. Can we just have a sticky about the benefits of getting a teacher and leave it at that?

Also, "use the search function." This forum is not a clean database of advice. The search function is probably going to return alot of junk you will be forced to sift through. Just let them ask the damn question again. Don't respond if you dont feel like it.

 

[TroyK]

Seanto, reasonable observations, let me give you mine in response.

The same questions get posted over and over. Years of good responses from people really well qualified to answer them are on record. The original point of this thread, I think is that many of those people stopped responding some time ago, as you suggested they should.

I can't tell you how many times, someone who doesn't have any experience with double bass, (doesn't have one listed in their profile or admits that they've been playing for a few months or has never played, but is saving up and is sure they won't have a problem or appears to not have understood that they are even responding to a question on the DB side) posts some declarative and off-mark advice. So, there's a dilemma and here are the options for the experienced players on this forum as I see them:

* Try to nip the question in the bud, which as you pointed out is not ever received well by the person who posted it and frequently not by the people I was talking about who either have answered or are about to anyway.

* Respond again and then possibly have their advice immediately balanced out by someone who isn't qualified to answer but has a louder voice.

* Do as you suggest and just don't bother responding or correcting the bad advice.

I've taken all 3 of these approaches personally, by the way and don't feel great about any of them. I prefer Option 1. Especially to the questions of "should I buy this bass on eBay?" or "Where can I get a carved bass for $400". We built a wiki in an effort to provide a helpful answer to those questions without getting into the debate every time. It makes me happy to see people post that link in response. Still someone with a garage full of knock off P-Basses will reply with "Dude, the looks sick! Go for it!"

"Is it okay to use Gorilla Glue to stick this seam back down?" There is only one right answer to that question and if you don't know it, you shouldn't answer or contradict a luthier who takes the time to do so. People are always complaining about no qualified DB luthiers in their town. Well, when one answers a question, it's not cool to chime in with "well I built a deck once and would use stainless steel hex screws to reattach that neck"

The problem with option 2 is that the world of doublebassists is very small, we're not talking about an infinite number of really credible people and the one's we have here who spent 10 years having 14 year olds argue with them have better things to do.

Which leads to option 3. As soon as all of those people decide that they don't care about what gets posted here anymore, then we end up with "TBDB D.O.A.?" threads. Gee, why did all those guys go away? Remember when they used to post? Well, just as you suggested, they stopped bothering to reply. And once none of them were posting then there was nothing to read or discuss so people stop bothering to log in. Bada-boom, bada-bing, here we are.

So, all of those options have their problems. I can't think of an option #4, except that I know the site is due for a facelift and there's been some discussion about things that might make it better and maybe it will help. There are, in fact, stupid questions. There's just no way around that. Worse still, there are stupid answers available by the truckload.

I read a Dear Abby column on-line the other day. I don't know why, I just happened upon it and read it because I haven't seen one in ages and didn't know they still existed. It occurred to me how much it has changed moving out of newspapers and to the internet. the main difference, for 30 or 40 years, people wrote in for advice and Abigal Van Buren gave them thoughtful replies. I'm not sure what qualified her to do that, but they knew who they were asking and if she chose your question, then she published it with her personal response to you. Maybe someone else had the same question and benefited from reading it as well.

Today, it's similar, except that it's online and below her (now daughter's) response is a comments section, so instead of just getting her thoughtful and presumably qualified response, anyone with a keyboard gives their opinion and starts arguing with each other, insulting the person who asked the question, making the question somehow about Obama or Jesus or Gun Control or whatever their thing is.

My thinking was...I guess "Dear Abby doesn't work any more now that just anybody gets to say whatever they want and no one moderates or qualifies the responses."

I have some of the same observations about the Double Bass side of TalkBass. Which is a shame, because it is a small community and the opportunity to learn from people around the world who have some level of expertise on the subject is a resource the didn't exist for previous generations. When it's gone, it will be a much bigger loss than a newspaper advice columnist.

 

[sean_on_bass]

I really agree with most of your feelings Troy, and you uncovered some of the subtleties of how this place, and others like it, work.

I understand there has to be a balance between folks speaking out of their butts on subjects they may know nothing about, and actual professionals who have a lifetime of experience behind them.

My post is more directed to those folks that would rather type "get a teacher" than actually answer the question. Experience or no experience, i see that as a fairly useless answer that maybe shouldnt had been typed out at all and kind of deflects newer posters.

But you talk about the old posters not bothering to stop by anymore. That would point out a fundamental flaw that might not be able to be fixed. If no new users are coming to take their place then yes, this forum will die or get close to it if there is a downward trend is users.

I define forums like this, usually, as a place for just about anyone to log on, ask questions, and make comments, no matter who they are. The only rules being to stay on topic, and be respectful to each other. If you all are striving for something more than that, know it will be creating somewhat of a barrier to entry for new users.

 

[Nashrakh]

I stopped coming to TB very often because the BG side turned into a marketplace. I'd come by to check "new posts" and find 800 entries out of which I might find 4 worth reading.

The BG side is notorious for its gear obsession. Now this is an observation I've also made with sax forums, but only a really small percentage of threads is about how to play the damn thing, and the rest is about the material side, be it new mouthpieces, entire horns, basses, amps, pedals, et cetera.

I think that's actually pretty sad if most things talked about amount to nothing more than 'check out my new shiny blingz'. In some cases I sense a serious case of addicition. Not just the casual incident of GAS.

I've never got that vibe from DB players, they don't change gear more often than their underwear. And I guess that's a big factor in why there are fewer posts here than on the BG side. Then again, it's apparently easier to talk shop and post pictures than communicate about music, especially so when most people don't know how.

 

[MR PC]

But you talk about the old posters not bothering to stop by anymore. That would point out a fundamental flaw that might not be able to be fixed. If no new users are coming to take their place then yes, this forum will die or get close to it if there is a downward trend is users.

Well, that's certainly the truth. To hang with the chosen few here you must concur with certain unwritten rules, do some PM schmoozing, and support and endorse an elite group mind. Sort of like joining a church.

 

[TroyK]

I really agree with most of your feelings Troy, and you uncovered some of the subtleties of how this place, and others like it, work.

I understand there has to be a balance between folks speaking out of their butts on subjects they may know nothing about, and actual professionals who have a lifetime of experience behind them.

My post is more directed to those folks that would rather type "get a teacher" than actually answer the question. Experience or no experience, i see that as a fairly useless answer that maybe shouldnt had been typed out at all and kind of deflects newer posters.

But you talk about the old posters not bothering to stop by anymore. That would point out a fundamental flaw that might not be able to be fixed. If no new users are coming to take their place then yes, this forum will die or get close to it if there is a downward trend is users.

I define forums like this, usually, as a place for just about anyone to log on, ask questions, and make comments, no matter who they are. The only rules being to stay on topic, and be respectful to each other. If you all are striving for something more than that, know it will be creating somewhat of a barrier to entry for new users.

I'm glad we're finding common ground. One of the challenges here that I think is somewhat unique to world of TBDB is that we have a sister site for EBG players. Not that there's anything wrong with EBG. I have one and I love to play it, though increasingly these days, no one will let me. Without knowing the stats, I would guess that in this forum alone the ratio is at least 100:1, maybe higher. EBGist seem to think that they understand the doublebass. I'll cop to the fact that I felt the same way back when and got a rude awakening when I actually started my process as an adult.

When you get questions about "Painting fret lines on the fingerboard until you learn to play in tune." The right answer is "you need a teacher." That may not be the answer that you want to hear. It doesn't resonate with people who are self taught BGists, I get that, but it's still the right answer. 90% of the time when someone encourages "fret lines" and I click on their profile, I see a list of BGs that they own listed under gear and no DBs. I can tell you that it is very humbling after being a respected bass guitarist for 20 years to go to a teacher and start as a beginner. Very humbling. But, for me it was necessary and the time I spend avoiding it was time wasted. If you have a technique question, short of having a teacher work with you, you want someone like Ed Fuqua or Eric Hochberg to answer your question. If they have to shout over those other voices, their only going to do it for so long.

I am an active participant in a photography forum and some of same cultural things exist there as in all forums, but not that. That's fairly unique to us, I think. Doublebass and Bass Guitar are different instruments. The instruments are different physically, the mechanics of playing them are completely different. I didn't want that to be true when I was a bass guitarist dreaming of playing upright, but that's not the deciding factor in these things. It is what it is.

I'm not a well seasoned, pro-heavy-hitter on this instrument, but I've been fairly dedicated to it for well over a decade now and these guys and some local guys and a few great teachers helped me. Anyone telling me not to listen to them was working against my progress. I understand how you feel about our collective shortness on these points and you're right, we're not always in balance, but what would you like for us to do? Comes back to my 3 options really. I still can't think of a 4th, that doesn't involve some structural controls on content, which we may see in the form of wikis and new forum software. But still people are going to have to be willing to work with it.

Our best advice to a lot of questions is "get a teacher", "find a luthier", "don't try to make it a giant vertical BG", "buy or rent a serviceable instrument" and "don't take advice from someone who doesn't play." There are lots of other things we could be talking about, if we can just get past those. If we can't, then we're just stuck in a kind of purgatory and it loses value to everyone.

 

[TroyK]

...and then there are the trolls...but I guess every forum has them.

 

[MR PC]

That kind of statement is unnecessary behavior.

 

[TroyK]

Look at the "Favorite Bass solo" thread as a nice microcosm of TBDB.

Here's what the original poster politely asked:

Another thread got me curious about favorite bass solos and I thought this topic must have been covered here before so I searched, went through the first 10 pages of the results but no luck. If I missed it, can someone give me the search terms? or a link to the thread?
Otherwise, what's your favorite bass solo? Jazz, acoustic bass only, please.

Here was the 2nd response:

I really like Runnin' by Santana. Classic P tone.

and then a little later:

How about Chris Squire on the intro to On The Silent Wings of Freedom....

Invalid Link Removed

Classic Ric-o-sound... I love my GL J bass, but would give my left nut for a '64 Rickenbacker 4001 model rm1999..... I'm just saying..

Bass solo on Please Do Not Go off the Violent Femmes self titled record. Thanks, Brian Ritchie!

No one over reacted, no one was a d**k, but the OP very politely replied later:

Thanks to everyone who contributed! It's much appreciated. I very much enjoyed many of the of your favorites. I am looking for just acoustic bass jazz solos at the moment, so you'll forgive me if, while I appreciate the mastery of the BG solos, it's not my focus at the moment. Regardless, I very much appreciate all of your input! Thanks again!

and the very next two replies were:

Ralphe Armstrong's solo on Egocentric Molecules always amazes me.

and

Anything Matt Freeman does

_________________
Fender Jazz Bass#1307 "You lock the door, throw away the key, there's someone in my head but it's not me"

and then some support and reinforcement for the first one:

I really like Runnin' by Santana. Classic P tone.

I love this too!
__________________
Ibanez Club Member #1115; Florida Bassists Club #247; MikroWorld #48; John Paul Jones Fan Cub #32; Girl Bass Player Club #74; Phil Lesh Appreciation Society #99
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You can see how that sort of thing would get old over time, right? and this was a fairly harmless thread. It wasn't about technique or an injury or making a $2,000 purchase.

 

[MR PC]

Yes , that's some kind of evidence I guess. But that's just one thread out of thousands of others that are real good. I think letting those types of things pass is better than bringing it forward microscopically to illustrate point of viewpoint of the bigger picture here. Perhaps this makes it feel like one is in a courtroom being cross examined every time you post around here. It's no wonder so many great player's who use to post don't anymore. No one likes to feel like they are being stalked for possible humiliations in the future.

 

[TroyK]

...No one likes to feel like they are being stalked for possible humiliations in the future.

Yet, you just can't stop chasing me around these forums, can you?

 

[MR PC]

That is simply not true. I've been in this thread since it's inception. Yeah, I took a good lick for one of my comments. If I don't agree with your perceptions here, I think it's above board to post so. It's an open discussion right...with differing points of observation on the OP's statement welcome?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

That kind of statement is unnecessary behavior.

The irony here is palpable.

 

[Paul Warburton]

+1.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

My post is more directed to those folks that would rather type "get a teacher" than actually answer the question. Experience or no experience, i see that as a fairly useless answer that maybe shouldnt had been typed out at all and kind of deflects newer posters.

Slab might be one thing but double bass is very much an art better left taught in person. "Get a teacher" is a refrain that has a lot of wisdom behind it. It's no different than asking for a medical diagnosis for an stomach ache and is useless unless you are there in person. Similarly, in some situations, giving the wrong diagnosis can actually hurt the person in question, though bass playing prob wont' kill you.

I think people have gotten a little too used to the internet world. That everything and all the answers can be easily attained by googling or posing questions on a forum. Some things simply can't be answered textually or even verbally. They can only be experienced. But this is a reality that many people struggle to accept. They think just because they taught themselves how to play EB, that the same recipe can be applied to DB. This is a fallacy.

In that regard, it's certainly possible to get advice should one give the adequate set of info. Like posting a video or an audio clip of ones playing.

Also countless are the number of times people come back to forum only to admit that they were wrong and a teacher was the right call. Those that give positive responses about teachers in hindsight far outnumber those who were able to self-teach.

I participate in another form that is skiing related and it suffers from the same situation. Actually, it's even more insufferable since there are many different ways to ski down the same slope and everybody has a different body mechanic.

Double Bass is not simple. You dont' just your fingers in the right places and pull the strings. If it were, we would not be having this discussion. Or maybe it is simple, but it's a case where simple isn't easy, as they say.

 

[MR PC]

The irony here is palpable.

Ain't that the truth!

 

[TroyK]

Well, that's certainly the truth. To hang with the chosen few here you must concur with certain unwritten rules, do some PM schmoozing, and support and endorse an elite group mind. Sort of like joining a church.

This isn't trolly at all, is it? Just an opposing point of view.

The thing with you is that you always make it personal. You're not adding value, you're taking pot shots. Easy to do on the internet while hiding behind a screen name, but it wouldn't work in person and it doesn't work here.

If you have something to say about a recording or a set of strings or a gig that represents a point of view different from mine, that's fine, but that's not what we're talking about, is it? I once shared a story about a friend going through Chemotherapy and you replied and said that I was using my friend's cancer to raise my profile on TB. I added you to my ignore list until recently because you were still trolling me and people were quoting you in reply, so I had to see your bile anyway.

Don't pretend like you don't know what I'm talking about.

 

[MR PC]

This isn't trolly at all, is it? Just an opposing point of view.

The thing with you is that you always make it personal. You're not adding value, you're taking pot shots. Easy to do on the internet while hiding behind a screen name, but it wouldn't work in person and it doesn't work here.

If you have something to say about a recording or a set of strings or a gig that represents a point of view different from mine, that's fine, but that's not what we're talking about, is it? I once shared a story about a friend going through Chemotherapy and you replied and said that I was using my friend's cancer to raise my profile on TB. I added you to my ignore list until recently because you were still trolling me and people were quoting you in reply, so I had to see your bile anyway.

Don't pretend like you don't know what I'm talking about.

No. I remember quite well, since you take every opportunity to bring it up after years. That is not what happened in the cannabis thread. You claim that it was pulled by your request. Supposedly I said something definitive regarding your character, I think that was your perception. I'm not sure that is 100% true, and it certainly wasn't my intention to attack you. I didn't receive any infraction here, which would have been in order for that kind of comment. I did post some links to research information published by UCSF Oncolgy that was contradictory to some of the claims being made about about the universal use of the plant, especially for adolescents. I've since learned that action alone makes some people see red, when they are presented with a truth that contradicts their excuse for smoking pot 24/7 year in and year out. IMO the the Mods probably most wisely removed the thread because of the inflammatory nature that often accompanies online discussion medical cannabis in general.