If you were to tune a 34" scale bass to DGCF and put a capo on the 2nd fret (EADG), it's almost like playing on a short scale (or 30.5" scale). You do the same with a short scale, and you end up with an extra-short scale for young kids.
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If you were to tune a 34" scale bass to DGCF and put a capo on the 2nd fret (EADG), it's almost like playing on a short scale (or 30.5" scale). You do the same with a short scale, and you end up with an extra-short scale for young kids.
Yes it does! Setting up my 2022 4003 with that bridge was way easier than setting up my 2012 4003.
(apologies in advance for the length of this post, don't bother reading if you don't geek out about string gauges and tensions like me)
I started out on 5-string in B Standard but for the past 11 years, I've been playing 4-strings exclusively in E Standard tuning. I intend to return to playing 5-string, but I have been thinking of D Standard for both 4- and 5- string. I'm also maybe considering a 6-string bass.
Anyway, I was doing some research on string tensions, using the ancient D'Addario string tension guide as a starter, supplemented with the current figures D'Addario publishes on their website along with their sets.
I've always played .130/.135-.105-.085-.065-.045-.030/.032 for standard tunings (D'Addario EXL165, EXL165-5, EXL165-6; Rotosound RS77LD, RS775LD, RS776LD) but as anyone who has ever played a 5-string or 6-string in Standard tuning can tell you, even a .0130 or .135 is really just terribly floppy at B0. Even with a .145 bottom string, the heaviest I've seen instead for B0, I don't see myself tuning below C1 in the future.
There are, unfortunately, discrepancies between the original D'Addario tension chart (which was made back in the 1990s, I think) and the figures they currently publish on their website. D'Addario gives the following tensions:
(tension_chart_13934.pdf)
.045 G2, 42.8 lbs
.065 D2, 51.3 lbs
.085 A1, 48.4 lbs
.105 E1, 40.2 lbs
(website EXL165 page)
.045 G2, 42.52 lbs
.065 D2, 48.35 lbs
.085 A1, 45.34 lbs
.105 E1, 38.08 lbs
As you can see, even with a "standard" set of gauges, the E and G strings ends up significantly lower in tension, and the E should probably be increased to at least a .110 to balance the tension of the other strings, while the G should be increased to something a little heavier, possibly a .047 to .050 gauge, or maybe the D string should be lightened a bit. Unfortunately, D'Addario doesn't make anything between .045 and .050, anything between a .060 and .065, or anything between a .110 and a .120.
(tension_chart_13934.pdf)
.050 G2, 53.4 lbs
.110 E1, 46.2 lbs
.120 E1, 50.2 lbs
(website EXL230 page)
.110 E1, 41.35 lbs
(website EXL160BT page)
.050 G2, 50.3 lbs
.120 E1, 49.24 lbs)
The EXL160BT medium "balanced tension" set is:
.050 G2, 50.3 lbs
.067 D2, 51.09 lbs
.090 A1, 51.05 lbs
.120 E1, 49.24 lbs
I would prefer to maintain consistent string tension across the board, and I would prefer a D Standard set that is similar in tension to what I am used to at E Standard, so I have to say that, going by the old chart, the following gauges would be my preferences for D Standard tuning:
(tension_chart_13934.pdf)
.032 Eb3, somewhere above 49.0 lbs (assuming it doesn't break, highest figure given is D3, 49.0 lbs)*
.040 Bb2, somewhere between 42.5 and 53.5 lbs**
.055 F2, 50.0 lbs***
.070 C2, 47.7 lbs
.095 G1, 48.7 lbs
.130 D1, 48.7 lbs
Note that the current EXL220BT super light "balanced tension" set is
.040
.055
.070
.095
*The old chart lists an NWB034 "guitar/bass" .034 E3, 50.4 lbs. I would surmise it probably has a lighter gauge core than the XLB032 D3, 49.0 lbs. I don't think this is still available, or at least, I can't find a listing for it.
**D'Addario currently lists a .042 single, but no tension figures are given for it in the old chart. The website page for the current EXL280 piccolo set gives the tension as A2, 45.51 lbs, so tuning it up a semitone would probably be just about right. My feeling is this is probably a better fit than the .040. They also currently list a .025w single and a .028w single, if you wanted to do E Standard on a 6-string with a wound high F.
***They also currently list a .052 single, but again, no tension figures are given in the old chart. The EXL280 page gives it E2, 37.59 lbs. This is probably a better fit than the .055.
So, given all that. I'm going to try, for 4-, 5-, or 6-string D Standard tuning:
Eb3: XLB032
Bb2: XLB042 or XLB040 (nut cut for .042 string)
F2: XLB052 or XLB055 (nut cut for .055 string)
C2: XLB070
G1: XLB095
D1: XLB130
This way, I can:
buy single strings, or
buy the EXL280 piccolo set for the .032, .042, .052, and the EXL220BT set for the .040, .055, .070 and .090, plus a single .130, since it's often cheaper (not to mention easier) to buy sets, even if you end up with leftovers/duplicates/extras.
JustStrings (from whom I've happily ordered in the past for my experiments with custom gauges/tunings, no affiliation or financial interest) lists the EXL220BT at $19.95 and the EXL280 at $16.64. Singles are $5.18 each for the .032, .040, .042, 052, and .055; $6.25 for the .070; $8.03 for the .095; and $8.94 for the .130, so a whole set of 6 would cost $38.76. Buying the two sets plus a single .130 would be $45.53, and contain two extra strings, plus the .020p I wouldn't use, at all.
The extra .002 or .003 play in the two nut slots should not significantly affect tone or sustain if I'm using the slightly smaller string choices, and will make it easier to find strings in a pinch.
Truth be told, I prefer the tone of the NYXL strings to the regular XL, but the NYXLs aren't available in as wide a range of gauges. I've happily played XLs for years, so it's a compromise I can live with.
Now I just need to figure out the same for flatwounds...and then for rounds on guitar.
I started out on 5-string in B Standard but for the past 11 years, I've been playing 4-strings exclusively in E Standard tuning. I intend to return to playing 5-string, but I have been thinking of D Standard for both 4- and 5- string. I'm also maybe considering a 6-string bass.
Anyway, I was doing some research on string tensions, using the ancient D'Addario string tension guide as a starter, supplemented with the current figures D'Addario publishes on their website along with their sets.
I've always played .130/.135-.105-.085-.065-.045-.030/.032 for standard tunings (D'Addario EXL165, EXL165-5, EXL165-6; Rotosound RS77LD, RS775LD, RS776LD) but as anyone who has ever played a 5-string or 6-string in Standard tuning can tell you, even a .0130 or .135 is really just terribly floppy at B0. Even with a .145 bottom string, the heaviest I've seen instead for B0, I don't see myself tuning below C1 in the future.
There are, unfortunately, discrepancies between the original D'Addario tension chart (which was made back in the 1990s, I think) and the figures they currently publish on their website. D'Addario gives the following tensions:
(tension_chart_13934.pdf)
.045 G2, 42.8 lbs
.065 D2, 51.3 lbs
.085 A1, 48.4 lbs
.105 E1, 40.2 lbs
(website EXL165 page)
.045 G2, 42.52 lbs
.065 D2, 48.35 lbs
.085 A1, 45.34 lbs
.105 E1, 38.08 lbs
As you can see, even with a "standard" set of gauges, the E and G strings ends up significantly lower in tension, and the E should probably be increased to at least a .110 to balance the tension of the other strings, while the G should be increased to something a little heavier, possibly a .047 to .050 gauge, or maybe the D string should be lightened a bit. Unfortunately, D'Addario doesn't make anything between .045 and .050, anything between a .060 and .065, or anything between a .110 and a .120.
(tension_chart_13934.pdf)
.050 G2, 53.4 lbs
.110 E1, 46.2 lbs
.120 E1, 50.2 lbs
(website EXL230 page)
.110 E1, 41.35 lbs
(website EXL160BT page)
.050 G2, 50.3 lbs
.120 E1, 49.24 lbs)
The EXL160BT medium "balanced tension" set is:
.050 G2, 50.3 lbs
.067 D2, 51.09 lbs
.090 A1, 51.05 lbs
.120 E1, 49.24 lbs
I would prefer to maintain consistent string tension across the board, and I would prefer a D Standard set that is similar in tension to what I am used to at E Standard, so I have to say that, going by the old chart, the following gauges would be my preferences for D Standard tuning:
(tension_chart_13934.pdf)
.032 Eb3, somewhere above 49.0 lbs (assuming it doesn't break, highest figure given is D3, 49.0 lbs)*
.040 Bb2, somewhere between 42.5 and 53.5 lbs**
.055 F2, 50.0 lbs***
.070 C2, 47.7 lbs
.095 G1, 48.7 lbs
.130 D1, 48.7 lbs
Note that the current EXL220BT super light "balanced tension" set is
.040
.055
.070
.095
*The old chart lists an NWB034 "guitar/bass" .034 E3, 50.4 lbs. I would surmise it probably has a lighter gauge core than the XLB032 D3, 49.0 lbs. I don't think this is still available, or at least, I can't find a listing for it.
**D'Addario currently lists a .042 single, but no tension figures are given for it in the old chart. The website page for the current EXL280 piccolo set gives the tension as A2, 45.51 lbs, so tuning it up a semitone would probably be just about right. My feeling is this is probably a better fit than the .040. They also currently list a .025w single and a .028w single, if you wanted to do E Standard on a 6-string with a wound high F.
***They also currently list a .052 single, but again, no tension figures are given in the old chart. The EXL280 page gives it E2, 37.59 lbs. This is probably a better fit than the .055.
So, given all that. I'm going to try, for 4-, 5-, or 6-string D Standard tuning:
Eb3: XLB032
Bb2: XLB042 or XLB040 (nut cut for .042 string)
F2: XLB052 or XLB055 (nut cut for .055 string)
C2: XLB070
G1: XLB095
D1: XLB130
This way, I can:
buy single strings, or
buy the EXL280 piccolo set for the .032, .042, .052, and the EXL220BT set for the .040, .055, .070 and .090, plus a single .130, since it's often cheaper (not to mention easier) to buy sets, even if you end up with leftovers/duplicates/extras.
JustStrings (from whom I've happily ordered in the past for my experiments with custom gauges/tunings, no affiliation or financial interest) lists the EXL220BT at $19.95 and the EXL280 at $16.64. Singles are $5.18 each for the .032, .040, .042, 052, and .055; $6.25 for the .070; $8.03 for the .095; and $8.94 for the .130, so a whole set of 6 would cost $38.76. Buying the two sets plus a single .130 would be $45.53, and contain two extra strings, plus the .020p I wouldn't use, at all.
The extra .002 or .003 play in the two nut slots should not significantly affect tone or sustain if I'm using the slightly smaller string choices, and will make it easier to find strings in a pinch.
Truth be told, I prefer the tone of the NYXL strings to the regular XL, but the NYXLs aren't available in as wide a range of gauges. I've happily played XLs for years, so it's a compromise I can live with.
Now I just need to figure out the same for flatwounds...and then for rounds on guitar.
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I'll quickly address this point, since it's a bit of info you might immediately put to use:
tension doubles/is halved for every tritone increase/decrease. You can verify it in the old pdf chart: every single tension value for F will be exactly double that for B (or half, depending on which exact F and B are included in the chart for that string, of course).
There are a number of corollaries to the above. For example, tuning a given string one octave above (if at all possible) equals quadrupling the tension (also verifiable anywhere in the chart: if all tension values are provided, meaning the string is expected not to break within that range of pitches, the highest is always four times the lowest).
Another implication is the fact that one doesn't really need a chromatic tension chart: if you want to know the tension of a given string at Bb, just look for the tension at E, and double or halve it, depending on whether the E is lower or higher than the Bb you're interested in. In this case, the tension you need to know (XLB040 at Bb) is the tension at E (23.8 lbs) times two, i.e. 47.6 lbs.
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Thank you. I hadn't bothered to look up the equation for string pitch vis-a-vis tension, so I didn't make the connection.
I'm on a safari looking for flatwound strings for tuning DGCF on a 32" scale length bass. So far I seem to be stuck with Dunlop 45-125's and use the .125 .085 .065 .045. ideally I would have preferred .125 .090 .065 .050 but that isn't possible in Dunlop medium scale flats. So I will gain some tension for D with the .125 but get a bit sloppy for G and F using the medium scale set of Dunlops. Ideas anyone?
I don't think D'A offers the low B in medium or short scales. Dunlop is one of the few that actually offers 5-string flatwound sets in medium and short scales.
Drill for string-through. Or get creative, and ook for, or (have somebody) make a short, curved metal rail behind the bridge and around the edge of the body, so that a long-scale low B can be installed:
^ [Random image from the net, so as to serve as a crude illustration of the concept. Picture the railing as having a groove on the extrados, and some way for it to be screwed onto the body.]
Then try single Ernie Ball "Group" flats (before stores run out of them):
Single Bass Strings
Yes, no, you'd have to get a 130 for your D (no clue as to whether you'd like the tone, but at 32" scale it will only be a major second tighter than intended, so in little danger of breaking) - you might as well try 130-95-70-50.
...This, or Chromes as suggested above. Single flatwounds of the "non-traditional" kind are becoming harder to find.
I am pretty sure as michael_t says that Dads doesn't do s chrome flat in a heavier gauge than .100 in medium scale
Dunlop might not have as extensive a range of string sets as some but a lot of the other string manufacturers could learn a thing or two about how easy their string offerings are to navigate and make a choice. But Dunlop could learn too by putting stuff on their packs like winding length, and in big bold letters what scale length the set is intended for. And all manufacturers should put a tension chart on the back of the pack. There was a time when folks just slapped strings on with little regard for the finer points of string mathematics. Since the net, the string consumer has become more knowledgeable and savvy. So come on manufacturers. Stop being so arcane about string stuff.
On the pack:
Outer winding :Flat or Round ( any mods or special sauce included )
Outer winding materials ( nickel stainless etc)
Core: Hex or Round ( any special sauce included e.g silk)
Gauge
Scale length suitability
Winding length
Tapered ball end : yes/no
Silked ball end: yes/no
Silked taper: yes/no
Tension Chart: ( pitches lower than E standard included)
Make it a hell of a lot easier for us consumers to make choices instead of combing thru string sites like forensic detectives on cold cases
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Drill for string-through. Or get creative, and ook for, or (have somebody) make a short, curved metal rail behind the bridge and around the edge of the body, so that a long-scale low B can be installed:
^ [Random image from the net, so as to serve as a crude illustration of the concept. Picture the railing as having a groove on the extrados, and some way for it to be screwed onto the body.]
Then try single Ernie Ball "Group" flats (before stores run out of them):
Single Bass Strings
Yes, no, you'd have to get a 130 for your D (no clue as to whether you'd like the tone, but at 32" scale it will only be a major second tighter than intended, so in little danger of breaking) - you might as well try 130-95-70-50.
...This, or Chromes as suggested above. Single flatwounds of the "non-traditional" kind are becoming harder to find.
Read about various methods of using long scales from doing a string thru to washers, crimping etc. There was quite a bit of chatter about it in the early days of the Mikro club because string sets best suited for a Mikro were either non existent or hadn't been tried and the suitability or lack thereof hadn't been disseminated. I'm going to look more into the use of fencing swage and crimping. Something robust and like so Invalid Link Removed
Rounds more up to it. Xad in the Mikro thread mentions using TI flats that he has pic of with non silked taper around the posts and has tuning stability and strings look ok. He speculates it may be due to the silk wrapping of the core imparting additional flexability."Official" Mikro Bass Club Part 3
Yays and nays on using longies on shorter scales here Can a long scale bass strings be put on a short scale bass?
The prob with flats via string through is that the break angle at the saddle can seperate the outer winding more easily. Labella warn about using this and have a specific set to deal with it. Never had flats via string through, so I don't know if true or not. Seems it would stress the ribbon if the string emerges from holes close to the saddles and not drilled further back
I thought this might be useful for anyone who might wanna use the Dunlop 5 string flats 45-125 on a 32" scale bass. I was gonna post it in the 32" club but seeing as it involves DGCF tuning I'd post it here and put a link to it in the 32" club where string choice is topical. None of this stuff is news to those in the know, but might be handy for those who don't get into string math much, if at all.
A tension chart based on Dunlop tensions for long scale has been posted on TB elsewhere. My calculations are based on that.
So establishing a baseline for tension of the Dunlops in E standard using 45-105 flats, and using the formula Tension for long scale multipied by ( medium scale"/long scale") squared , the following tensions are spat out
E1 .105" / 37.46 lbs
A1 .085" / 42.87 lbs
D2 .065" / 44.46 lbs
G2 .045" / 42.6 lbs
Total Tension = 167.39 lbs
Now working out the tension for the B .125" in the 5 string set we do our formula again to arrive at a tension for 32" scale Thus B0 .125 tension is 27.81 lbs. So we now have all the tensions needed to shift down to DGCF
Heading over to Wikipedia Piano key frequencies - Wikipedia we get our frequencies for the pitches of the strings we know the tension of and the pitch frequencies of the desired tuning. We now use the same formula used to derive tensions at a new scale length , except, instead of inputting scale length/ scale length, we input frequency/ frequency to arrive at new tension. If the desired tuned pitch is arrived at by downtuning, the lower frequency divides the higher frequency . If the desired frequency is arrived at by tuning up, the higher frequency divides the lower frequency. Thus to get the tension of D using the .125" string of the set we use the known tension of B0 tension (27.81 lbs) x ( 36.7hz/30.76hz) squared. The new tension for D1 pitch is derived.
Thus
D1 .125" /40 lbs
G1 .085 /34 lbs
C2 .065 /35.29 lbs
F2 .045 /33.86 lbs
Total Tension = 143.15 lbs
A reduction in tension from the baseline E standard of 24.24 lbs. So some truss rod loosening may be required. This is likely going to be the set I use on my soon to arrive 32" given the paltry choices. I am currently doing DGCF on a Mikro with 45-105 Dunlop flats, but less than ideal. I have on order some labella 760 FM-S 49-109 for a bit more tension. Unfortunatey the tastier labella 52-110 DTF are only available in long scale. They have a larger core to wrap ratio and quite stiff apparently.
Dunlop Long Scale String Tensions
A tension chart based on Dunlop tensions for long scale has been posted on TB elsewhere. My calculations are based on that.
So establishing a baseline for tension of the Dunlops in E standard using 45-105 flats, and using the formula Tension for long scale multipied by ( medium scale"/long scale") squared , the following tensions are spat out
E1 .105" / 37.46 lbs
A1 .085" / 42.87 lbs
D2 .065" / 44.46 lbs
G2 .045" / 42.6 lbs
Total Tension = 167.39 lbs
Now working out the tension for the B .125" in the 5 string set we do our formula again to arrive at a tension for 32" scale Thus B0 .125 tension is 27.81 lbs. So we now have all the tensions needed to shift down to DGCF
Heading over to Wikipedia Piano key frequencies - Wikipedia we get our frequencies for the pitches of the strings we know the tension of and the pitch frequencies of the desired tuning. We now use the same formula used to derive tensions at a new scale length , except, instead of inputting scale length/ scale length, we input frequency/ frequency to arrive at new tension. If the desired tuned pitch is arrived at by downtuning, the lower frequency divides the higher frequency . If the desired frequency is arrived at by tuning up, the higher frequency divides the lower frequency. Thus to get the tension of D using the .125" string of the set we use the known tension of B0 tension (27.81 lbs) x ( 36.7hz/30.76hz) squared. The new tension for D1 pitch is derived.
Thus
D1 .125" /40 lbs
G1 .085 /34 lbs
C2 .065 /35.29 lbs
F2 .045 /33.86 lbs
Total Tension = 143.15 lbs
A reduction in tension from the baseline E standard of 24.24 lbs. So some truss rod loosening may be required. This is likely going to be the set I use on my soon to arrive 32" given the paltry choices. I am currently doing DGCF on a Mikro with 45-105 Dunlop flats, but less than ideal. I have on order some labella 760 FM-S 49-109 for a bit more tension. Unfortunatey the tastier labella 52-110 DTF are only available in long scale. They have a larger core to wrap ratio and quite stiff apparently.
Dunlop Long Scale String Tensions
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Another flats string set I would like to try for DGCF are Galli Jazz Flats 45-130 in medium scale. JF45130 5 strings Medium
Like to compare them with Dunlops if anything. They sound a bit brighter to me. Can hear them kick in on a 5 stringer ( which I assume is tuned BEADG) You can also hear the 4 string 45-105's just before)
Disclaimer: I don't work for Galli he he
Like to compare them with Dunlops if anything. They sound a bit brighter to me. Can hear them kick in on a 5 stringer ( which I assume is tuned BEADG) You can also hear the 4 string 45-105's just before)
Disclaimer: I don't work for Galli he he
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Ernie Ball Slinky Flatwounds are now available in two new sets in short scale which may be of interest to those down tuning to D standard on shorters. The 50-110 has gauges 050 070 090 110. Note this is a change for two of the string gauges, which are 055 and 075 in the long scale set [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Even though I'm using a less than ideal set of strings for D standard on my Mikro, I have made the mental switch to DGCF and when I do put a better set on it I will enjoy it even more. I doubt I would go back to E standard. Just some nice advantages to D over E and D over B for that matter, which I have contemplated too
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Both D Standard and E Standard have their advantages and uses. That's one why I have multiple basses. I also didn't switch to one or the other exclusively because one tuning might work better than the other for certain songs.
Ahh but what if you were on a desert island with only one bass. What then he he
