Double Bass Dampits

[toman]

Now I can save money by no longer performing preventative maintenance on my cars. They ought to be more durable and last longer last longer that way!

Ever seen a car that's lived every day under a car cover for a few years, the owner thinking he's protecting it? Not pretty. However, one of the best protectants for a car's finish is dirt and grime. Buy a new car, wax it and then don't wash it for a few years; the finish underneath the gunk will be better than the car that gets washed once a week.

 

[pdbass]

I've had discussions with the great luthier Mike Shank about this very topic. Mike believes, based on his experience, that instruments that are highly pampered tend to be more likely to have problems in the event of drastic humidity changes than instruments that aren't. He told me about an orchestra section where most of the members kept humidifiers in their instrument closets. One year, a snow storm prevented anyone from getting to the humidifiers to refill them. All of the instruments in closets with humidifiers developed cracks when the water ran out. All of the instruments in the closets without humidifiers survived just fine. I wouldn't call the story definitive but it lends anecdotal weight to his claim.

My '32 Juzek spent 30 years in someone's closet before I bought it. It was never taken care of. I never had to do anything special as far as humidity goes. It could take overnight 30 point drops in humidity and never have a problem. My '74 Juzek cracked down the front plate during one humidity drop (the cracking sounded like a ice falling off of the roof) and my '28 popped a couple of seams last year when our in house humidifier went into reset mode and the humidity dropped from 40 to 20 percent in a couple of hours (both basses were repaired and were just fine).

I keep a digital hygrometer in my house and watch that the humidity stays above 30% in the bass room. Most of the time, in the winter, it runs 35-40%. I don't have a separate humidifier but if our in-house humidifier can't keep the humidity above 30%, I'll go out and get one. I've never used dampits. Mike told me they were worthless so I never bothered. I've never had trouble with transporting a bass in the car and I fairly routinely have a bass in the car for up to 6-10 hours on some days.

mark

Good story, Mark.

Anything Mike says should be pretty much taken as GOSPEL, too. Maybe I'm over-humidifying, but it seems as though your guideline has been mine: keep it over 30%. I think alot of people (at least I've READ) tend to try and keep thier instruments in the 45% and above region. Of course, everything is different (basses, homes, spaces, etc), right?

I'm interested in your car tales, though. As you know, I'm driving my bass ALL OVER the place for gigs. I've got something at Nemicolin this weekend, in fact. I've always thought that a car with no humidity plus hot air was a dangerous place for my bass to be. Ever brought your hygrometer along for a car trip? It gets dry in there. You've never had a problem?

p.s. so we've established that Dampits don't do anything without a case on. Can dry Dampits absorb excess MOISTURE (a la the 'hanging potato') during particularly humid times?

 

[Mark Perna]

Now I can save money by no longer performing preventative maintenance on my cars. They ought to be more durable and last longer last longer that way!

I'd suggest changing the oil every 70,000 miles whether it needs it or not...

 

[drurb]

Ever seen a car that's lived every day under a car cover for a few years, the owner thinking he's protecting it? Not pretty. However, one of the best protectants for a car's finish is dirt and grime. Buy a new car, wax it and then don't wash it for a few years; the finish underneath the gunk will be better than the car that gets washed once a week.

In other words, moderation is the key. That's how I think of proper humidification.

 

[Mark Perna]

I'm interested in your car tales, though. As you know, I'm driving my bass ALL OVER the place for gigs. I've got something at Nemicolin this weekend, in fact. I've always thought that a car with no humidity plus hot air was a dangerous place for my bass to be. Ever brought your hygrometer along for a car trip? It gets dry in there. You've never had a problem?

p.s. so we've established that Dampits don't do anything without a case on. Can dry Dampits absorb excess MOISTURE (a la the 'hanging potato') during particularly humid times?

I used to play at this place in downtown Pittsburgh called Valhalla 4 nights per week (W-S). On weekdays, I would put the bass in the car around 6 AM, drive to wherever I was working that day (I'm a medical physics consultant during the day) which could be up to 200 miles away, drive straight to the gig that night at around 6 PM, change clothes, play the gig, drive home. Repeat for the other weeknights. The bass was in the car 12-13 hours per day Wed-Fri for almost 5 years. I had absolutely no problems related to humidity. That was the '32 Juzek that spent 30 years being neglected in someone's closet. I don't know if my '28 or '74 Juzeks would take THAT kind of abuse without any problems although I've done some heavy driving with them without problem. The only humidity related problems I've ever had, I've already mentioned: the '74's front face splitting after a massive drop in humidity and temperature and the bottom seams on the '28 popping after a similarly gigantic drop in humidity and temperature. Both occurred in the house and both occurred after the outside temperature rapidly went from 20 degrees to minus 20. In both cases, the humidity went from mid-30s to well under 20 percent in a couple of hours and stayed that way for a couple of days. In both cases, the injuries to the basses didn't manifest until living in the new harsh environment for over a day.

As a physicist, my intuition tells me that Dampits probably can't absorb enough moisture to make a spit's worth of difference in a highly humid environment. The equivalent of millions, if not billions of gallons of water in the air vs. an absorbing rod about a foot long. Even enclosed in a case, it seems like the odds are against it doing much. I've not tried it though. For argument's sake, if it really did absorb the moisture, it would reach saturation at some point and then drip all through the inside of your bass. Probably not a good scenario.

mark

 

[drurb]

I've had discussions with the great luthier Mike Shank about this very topic. Mike believes, based on his experience, that instruments that are highly pampered tend to be more likely to have problems in the event of drastic humidity changes than instruments that aren't. He told me about an orchestra section where most of the members kept humidifiers in their instrument closets. One year, a snow storm prevented anyone from getting to the humidifiers to refill them. All of the instruments in closets with humidifiers developed cracks when the water ran out. All of the instruments in the closets without humidifiers survived just fine. I wouldn't call the story definitive but it lends anecdotal weight to his claim...

Ah, but the data could be explained another way. The basses that were kept humidified suffered the most rapid and drastic changes in humidity when the snowstorm prevented refilling of the humidifiers. The basses that were not pampered suffered less rapid changes. The story does not necessarily support the notion that "instruments that are highly pampered tend to be more likely to have problems in the event of drastic humidity changes." Rather, it is likely the case that the pampered basses were the only ones actually exposed to drastic changes. Once the water in the humidifiers was gone, those basses and only those basses were exposed to a relatively rapid fall toward the level of humidity in the room.

This probably generalizes. That is, it is likely that basses that are kept under controlled humidity in the winter, especially if the humidity is too high, are the ones that may suffer damage when moved to uncontrolled dryer environments because they experience more of a change than basses that are not so controlled. It's a matter of common sense. If you'll be taking your bass to dryer environments, you'll either have to acclimatize it slowly or make sure that you keep your humidity at a level that results in less of a change.

IMO, none of this is justification NOT to control humidity if you live in a locale where the relative humidity, if uncontrolled, can flirt with levels in the 30s. In summary, I'd say that Mike's experience results not from the fact that pampered basses are less able to endure rapid changes in humidity but because they are likely the very ones that end up being exposed to the rapid changes when they are moved out of their controlled environments. So Mike's warning against over-pampering makes a great deal of sense. Again, moderation and common sense should prevail when controlling humidity.

 

[Mark Perna]

Ah, but the data could be explained another way. The basses that were kept humidified suffered the most rapid and drastic changes in humidity when the snowstorm prevented refilling of the humidifiers. The basses that were not pampered suffered less rapid changes. The story does not necessarily support the notion that "instruments that are highly pampered tend to be more likely to have problems in the event of drastic humidity changes." Rather, it is likely the case that the pampered basses were the only ones actually exposed to drastic changes. Once the water in the humidifiers was gone, those basses and only those basses were exposed to a relatively rapid fall toward the level of humidity in the room.

This probably generalizes. That is, it is likely that basses that are kept under controlled humidity in the winter, especially if the humidity is too high, are the ones that may suffer damage when moved to uncontrolled dryer environments because they experience more of a change than basses that are not so controlled. It's a matter of common sense. If you'll be taking your bass to dryer environments, you'll either have to acclimatize it slowly or make sure that you keep your humidity at a level that results in less of a change.

IMO, none of this is justification NOT to control humidity if you live in a locale where the relative humidity, if uncontrolled, can flirt with levels in the 30s. In summary, I'd say that Mike's experience results not from the fact that pampered basses are less able to endure rapid changes in humidity but because they are likely the very ones that end up being exposed to the rapid changes when they are moved out of their controlled environments. So Mike's warning against over-pampering makes a great deal of sense. Again, moderation and common sense should prevail when controlling humidity.

It's not my contention so you'll have to bring it up with Mike. The story I related was just one specific example. He told me that generally he thinks that wooden instruments become conditioned to their environment including changing environments. The more rigidly controlled the environment the instrument is maintained in, the more likely that injury will occur with a changed environment. If a bass is accustomed to humidity variations from 30-50% in the winter, it will be less likely to crack than a bass that is maintained at 50% humidity if both basses are subjected to the same insult. In other words, bass A is used to living in a fluctuating environment, bass B is maintained at 50% humidity. Both basses are moved from a room with 50% humidity to a room with 20% humidity. It is Mike's contention that bass B is more likely to crack than Bass A even though they suffered the same insult.

Please note that Mike, at no time, advocated ignoring humidity. If I remember right, he recommends trying to maintain a winter humidity of about 40% and I remember he specifically recommended not over-humidifying for the reasons you gave above (i.e. rapid changes in humidity causing cracks).

Personally, I'm with you. I try to use common sense with maintaining humidity in the house. I don't over humidify and try to keep the humidity as close to 40% as possible.

mark

 

[Sam Sherry]

One missing piece of data in this discussion is particularity about flat- and round-back basses. Picture any old flat-back in your mind, and think about where the big nasty crack is. The same isn't true about round-backs. (Or, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.)

I just dig that flat-back sound, though.

EDIT: Man, I can't believe I'm arguing about f*&$#@ dampits! I had better get a life, doncha think?

 

[drurb]

...If a bass is accustomed to humidity variations from 30-50% in the winter, it will be less likely to crack than a bass that is maintained at 50% humidity if both basses are subjected to the same insult. In other words, bass A is used to living in a fluctuating environment, bass B is maintained at 50% humidity. Both basses are moved from a room with 50% humidity to a room with 20% humidity. It is Mike's contention that bass B is more likely to crack than Bass A even though they suffered the same insult...

Thanks for clarifying that this really is what he meant. I certainly don't understand it and can't imagine what aspect of the physics would lead to the wood in basses that are used to fluctuations being some how "toughened" so it is less susceptible to the ill effects of rapid changes. Perhaps some of the "wood experts" here can enlighten us. I also maintain humidity in the winter in the 40% region. I've never had a problem beyond the occasional slightly loose seam that would otherwise have gone unnoticed had I or the luthier not looked for it.

 

[drurb]

EDIT: Man, I can't believe I'm arguing about f*&$#@ dampits! I had better get a life, doncha think?

That goes for all of us. What's worse is that some of us are doing this for, what, the tenth time?

 

[Damon Rondeau]

The basics: wood is a bunch of long fibres (think of them like drinking straws) held together by lignin (think of it as a kiind of glue.) As it absorbs moisture it swells across the width of the bundle; it moves almost nil along the length of the fibres. When a piece of wood (not a glue joint) fails because of this movement it's because the bond joining the straws together has failed.

More basics: there's variation in everything, including variation with respect to how likely wood used as a bass top is likely to crack because of humidity changes. Variation across species, variation within species, and variation within a single piece of wood.

Maybe what we're seeing with lots of crack-free survivors among basses that have been subjected to lots of humidity cycling is simply pieces of wood from the not-likely-to-crack end of the spectrum. Good wood.

 

[D McCartney]

Has anyone actually taken two hygrometers, put them in controlled environments, one with a dampit and one without to see exactly how much humidity is supplied with the dampit? (Sorry Sam for keeping this going).

 

[forester]

i heat with wood there is little or no humidity in this environ...1836 flatback A-ok and daily driver ... me 1953... cracked skin,popped seams,wilting sound post. (1) dampit in shirt (2) dampits in trouser.

 

[Brad Maestas]

^LMAO!

 

[basss]

Is it better to keep the room you store it in climate controlled if you have the bass out on gigs and rehearsal in non climate controlled rooms on a daily basis? Is the back and forth worse for the bass or is it better to moisten it up regularly?

 

[VegasGutPlucker]

I live in Las Vegas where the relative humidity is rarely over 20%. How do you feel about humidity control in a desert region?

 

[Paul Warburton]

I use to keep damp-its in my basses just for looks and the obvious question, what the hell is that? So I could say...It's a marital aid.