Double Bass DB beginner Qs: Rabbath + French bow

[Depechionista]

I'm a complete beginner to double bass coming from bass guitar. I found a school where I can take private lessons after work. My assigned instructor teaches Rabbath technique and is a classical musician.

I watched a few videos and found articles and old TB posts about Rabbath and have the following questions:

1) Does it matter if one starts with a focus on classical or jazz in the very beginning? I'm open to classical but expect to play jazz more frequently.

2) To my inexperienced eyes, German bow appears easier to consistently hold correctly. Does it matter in the beginning?

3) I've mostly been told that new bassists should start with Simandl. Would starting with Rabbath put me at a disadvantage?

4) I'm quite a bit taller than the teacher. Is there anything that I should be aware of in terms of how our statures might affect the way we'd individually approach the instrument that I should ask her about?

 

[Lee Moses]

1. Learning good classical technique will provide a good foundation for playing jazz. Many, if not most, great jazz bassists have that classical foundation to some extent.
2. As a French bow player, I do believe German bow is easier to grip and makes it easier to produce a strong tone. But plenty of bassists start out on French bow. If you really want to learn German bow, indicate that to your teacher. He most likely knows enough about it to get you started, or he can refer you to someone else.
3. I don't believe starting with Rabbath would put you at a disadvantage. They're just different approaches. Rabbath will have you doing some things earlier than Simandl.
4. You could just ask her that question. I personally think being taller is more conducive to playing seated, but plenty of tall bassists stand and do just fine.

 

[paulunger]

1) The technique of playing the bass is the same, regardless of style. Learn “classical” technique from a classical teacher. This will teach you best ‘how’ to play the bass most efficiently but it won’t teach ‘what’ to play as an improviser.
2) It doesn’t mater which bow hold you use. Use whichever one feels best to you.
3) I start all my students - young, old, beginner, professional - with Progressive Repertoire Book One by George Vance. It is based on Rabbath technique. Both the Rabbath and Vance books do not spell out what the goals and techniques are that each piece and exercise addresses. That’s why you need a teacher who understands the method to teach it to you. IMHO the Vance/Rabbath is a far superior place to start learning the bass. The techniques you would learn from Simandl are contained within Rabbath. As you progress, you should start looking at etudes and exercises from other sources - Simandl, Nanny, Billie’, etc.
4) Every human is different and every bass is different. The basic fundamental goals are same by adapted to the individual. That’s why it’s best to have a teacher help you.
Good luck!

 

[Quentin MCB]

I have both books, Simandl and Rabbath. I'm not the most experienced, but my humble experience is that Rabbath felt a bit more modern in its approach, and was more satisfying to work through. It would make you play melodic studies quicker, so more rewarding. It felt very solid, I would trust it. Also check videos of Francois Rabbath playing, he's so great !

 

[dc-upright]

I just started with a bow the first of June, my teacher is using both Simandl and Vance along with the scale of the week. It is working very well.

 

[thehindteet]

It sounds like your thinking here is guided by fear and anxiety. For example, it sounds like you're worried that if you spend time studying classical method will it hinder your jazz playing, or if you choose the wrong bow grip will it stunt your development, or if you make the incorrect left hand method choice between Simandl and Rabbath will you be disadvantaged, or if you study with a short person as a tall person will you be disadvantaged, and so on.

If you have decided to learn this instrument, you are embarking on a path which is basically preposterous from the start. You have chosen a gigantic, expensive, and incredibly impractical instrument which is fiendishly difficult to play in tune and even more difficult to transport and care for. So realistically you'll be lucky if you learn to play it at all, much less to approach the level of proficiency where these binary choices related to your technique or method matter that much.

My advice would be to stop entertaining your anxiety and just learn some music on the instrument using whatever is convenient for you today. If this is your instrument, you'll change instruments, bows, instructors, strings, rosin, and everything else dozens of times. If it isn't your instrument and you love making music, you'll find another instrument. But whatever you play and wherever you go, fear isn't going to get you there, so put it aside and concentrate on enjoying what you're doing rather than worrying about what you aren't doing right.

 

[Depechionista]

I just started with a bow the first of June, my teacher is using both Simandl and Vance along with the scale of the week. It is working very well.

That's good to hear. I'm glad it's going well so far!

 

[Depechionista]

I have both books, Simandl and Rabbath. I'm not the most experienced, but my humble experience is that Rabbath felt a bit more modern in its approach, and was more satisfying to work through. It would make you play melodic studies quicker, so more rewarding. It felt very solid, I would trust it. Also check videos of Francois Rabbath playing, he's so great !

Thanks for sharing your perspective and experience with both. +1 on the videos, he is great.

 

[Depechionista]

1) The technique of playing the bass is the same, regardless of style. Learn “classical” technique from a classical teacher. This will teach you best ‘how’ to play the bass most efficiently but it won’t teach ‘what’ to play as an improviser.
2) It doesn’t mater which bow hold you use. Use whichever one feels best to you.
3) I start all my students - young, old, beginner, professional - with Progressive Repertoire Book One by George Vance. It is based on Rabbath technique. Both the Rabbath and Vance books do not spell out what the goals and techniques are that each piece and exercise addresses. That’s why you need a teacher who understands the method to teach it to you. IMHO the Vance/Rabbath is a far superior place to start learning the bass. The techniques you would learn from Simandl are contained within Rabbath. As you progress, you should start looking at etudes and exercises from other sources - Simandl, Nanny, Billie’, etc.
4) Every human is different and every bass is different. The basic fundamental goals are same by adapted to the individual. That’s why it’s best to have a teacher help you.
Good luck!

Thanks for the perspective on both Vance and Rabbath and how the recommended book has gone so far with your beginner students. Extra thanks on additional names to check out for etudes!

 

[Depechionista]

1. Learning good classical technique will provide a good foundation for playing jazz. Many, if not most, great jazz bassists have that classical foundation to some extent.
2. As a French bow player, I do believe German bow is easier to grip and makes it easier to produce a strong tone. But plenty of bassists start out on French bow. If you really want to learn German bow, indicate that to your teacher. He most likely knows enough about it to get you started, or he can refer you to someone else.
3. I don't believe starting with Rabbath would put you at a disadvantage. They're just different approaches. Rabbath will have you doing some things earlier than Simandl.
4. You could just ask her that question. I personally think being taller is more conducive to playing seated, but plenty of tall bassists stand and do just fine.

Thanks for the clarification on the bow and technique. I'll follow up on the height thing if it comes up again conversationally. It doesn't seem like it will, though, based on the collective responses.

 

[Paul New]

You are incredibly lucky to be able to start from square one with a Rabbath teacher!

Thank your lucky stars and do everything he says.

 

[LaFaro01]

Perhaps it might help you looking this video from David Allen Moore, where he among other things discusses differences and common features of these techniques:

And.. getting a well-founded classical technique also for playing Jazz is the best thing that can happen to you... I "walked the other way" and it took a while to realize, what was/is missing and needs to be improved...

 

[Depechionista]

It sounds like your thinking here is guided by fear and anxiety. For example, it sounds like you're worried that if you spend time studying classical method will it hinder your jazz playing, or if you choose the wrong bow grip will it stunt your development, or if you make the incorrect left hand method choice between Simandl and Rabbath will you be disadvantaged, or if you study with a short person as a tall person will you be disadvantaged, and so on.

If you have decided to learn this instrument, you are embarking on a path which is basically preposterous from the start. You have chosen a gigantic, expensive, and incredibly impractical instrument which is fiendishly difficult to play in tune and even more difficult to transport and care for. So realistically you'll be lucky if you learn to play it at all, much less to approach the level of proficiency where these binary choices related to your technique or method matter that much.

My advice would be to stop entertaining your anxiety and just learn some music on the instrument using whatever is convenient for you today. If this is your instrument, you'll change instruments, bows, instructors, strings, rosin, and everything else dozens of times. If it isn't your instrument and you love making music, you'll find another instrument. But whatever you play and wherever you go, fear isn't going to get you there, so put it aside and concentrate on enjoying what you're doing rather than worrying about what you aren't doing right.

Responses like this create an environment where it doesn't seem safe to be curious or ask questions.

Are you processing my journey through your own experiences? Does trying new things make you anxious? I'm unsure of what you intended in your response. Were you seeking to silence or reassure?

I didn't position anything as wrong or right in my comment. When did I say being tall is a disadvantage? The teacher mentioned being petite in reference to bass. Classical and jazz technique are represented in 2 different forums on talkbass. Has no one asked about the implied difference present on this site? If most folks start with Simandl, should I never wonder why I'm starting with Rabbath. Why is learning something challenging "preposterous?"

 

[Depechionista]

Perhaps it might help you looking this video from David Allen Moore, where he among other things discusses differences and common features of these techniques:

And.. getting a well-founded classical technique also for playing Jazz is the best thing that can happen to you... I "walked the other way" and it took a while to realize, what was/is missing and needs to be improved...

I love this YT channel! They post an overwhelming amount of awesome content. I haven't seen this video, yet. I'll download it to check out on my commute. Thank you! I think this'll be a fun watch.

 

[Bruce Calin]

Both methods are valid. The Vance approach is very good, also. One situation where I've found an advantage for Simandl is when a student is expected to play in some sort of ensemble immediately or very soon, which seems to happen fairly frequently. It starts in the lower positions, which is where a lot of bass parts are written, especially for beginners.

 

[jbasedig]

1. The key to good intonation while playing pizzicato, is lots of slow practice with the bow, listen for the harmonics and overtones. SO in no way will studying classical hurt your jazz playing. NOT studying classical technic will hinder your intonation.
2. I switched from French to German after 23 years. There are virtuoso bassists who play either. My teacher from UGA, Milton Masciadri is one of a handful of bassists who play solo repertoire, on international tours. HE swears by the French bow. HIs teacher, Gary Karr, the first player in the history of the instrument to have a solo (lucrative) career, play German bow. You find the one that works for you and DO NOT let a teacher force you one way or the other I was pushed to do French, but ultimately German is for me.
3. Rabath is a newer technique that emphasizes pivoting. Simandl is very much a book for those who play in orchestra. By this I mean, I took one lesson from the principal bassist from the Atlanta symphony. He's probably 15 years younger than me. I figured he'd do some new modern technique. Nope. Symphonies are very conservative places. His take was Simandl has worked for 100 plus years. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Section players in a symphony Are expected to to play with the same bowings and fingering. These are given by the principal player who gets his from the conductor, who is the one "interpreting " the music. Simandl is great for orchestral playing. I use electric bass fingering in 4th position. This is very UN -SIMANDL. I am not primarily an orchestra player though I do play in one. I'm a Jazz/Other player, so I embrace whatever technique is needed to get the job done. However, Simandl is great foundational studies and I'm sure Rabath himself would agree.
WELCOME WELCOME WELCOME. The double bass is an incredibly versatile and in demand instrument. It is, to quote Sting, " an athletic pursuit". You can't go from the couch to a marathon. You can't slack off double bass for 6 month and expect to have any stamina or speed. Electric bass.... not so much.

 

[Alexis Duntov]

Responses like this create an environment where it doesn't seem safe to be curious or ask questions.

Are you processing my journey through your own experiences? Does trying new things make you anxious? I'm unsure of what you intended in your response. Were you seeking to silence or reassure?

I didn't position anything as wrong or right in my comment. When did I say being tall is a disadvantage? The teacher mentioned being petite in reference to bass. Classical and jazz technique are represented in 2 different forums on talkbass. Has no one asked about the implied difference present on this site? If most folks start with Simandl, should I never wonder why I'm starting with Rabbath. Why is learning something challenging "preposterous?"

I think he meant “preposterous” in that the DB is a ridiculously large, strenuous, expensive, hard to play in tune instrument. Not that learning something challenging is preposterous. I see how you might have taken umbrage at his framing of your questions as guided by anxiety, but I think he was trying to indicate that there are certain things you can’t know about this journey until you dive in and start determining for yourself if you prefer Rabbath to Simandl or a French to a German bow or playing seated vs. standing. They are all good questions but can ultimately only be answered by doing the work. Which it sounds like you are committed to doing. So, welcome and congrats! Good bassists who can play in the orchestral/Jazz/other categories are in-demand folks. And I think you’ll find that the DB side of Talkbass is filled with very smart, dedicated, creative people who are obsessed with music and not gear.

 

[garrett2]

who are obsessed with music and not gear.

Due to the preposterous size of a double bass unless you have a castle you can't own 20. The preposterous size is an advantage insofar as you actually have to learn to play the damned thing or sell it.

That said double bass players can be gear heads about rosin, strings, bows, and mics.

 

[garrett2]

BTW some jazz players are pretty good with the bow!

 

[Depechionista]

I just finished my first lesson.

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful responses and answers. Extra thanks for the mental image of a castle sized double bass collection. Random giggles all the way home!