Double Bass DB/cello solo from Verdi's Rigoletto

[Andy Mopley]

Interested to read opinions as to whether you generally cross strings OR as suggested by Barry Lieberman, avoid as much a possible?

I like how he suggests playing the repeating last phrase (c to f and back to c) on both the g and the d strings, to add what he calls color to it.

Regards to all

 

[Calvin Marks]

The only colour you need is playing in tune and in time - the rest doesn’t matter.

 

[User4843936]

Probably best to think about phrasing, dynamics, bow distribution and placement, shifting, vibrato in your own time. Enjoy all the possibilities you can come up with. Try to come up with a load of renditions that all make sense in relation to themselves for own reasons.

That way, you can be best situated to happily to throw all of it away when you’re sat in situ playing a duet with a person who really might not feel they have to look around, listen to or ask for the bassist’s input.

 

[ILIA]

There's plenty of time to shift and the shifts in the Rigoletto "solo" are not that difficult (unless your shifting is not accurate), so what is there to gain by crossing strings? So, yeah, Barry gives good advice.

I'm perplexed though at why he suggests doing the C-F-E-D-C-C at the end, once on the G string and once on the D string. I can't think of any context where that would be a wise choice. It's high risk with low reward.

All this being said, Barry's videos are great. They were one of the first of their kind and very innovative and well-produced for their day (well-produced even by today's standards). Back in 2013, most bassists were still too afraid to put themselves out there on video playing excerpts, much less even wanting to give lectures about them. To this day, as many major symphony musicians from Barry's day are retiring, they have gone their entire careers with most people not knowing what they really sound like on excerpts except for the students who take lessons with them. Different generation for sure, but Barry was thinking like a young guy.

 

[Andy Mopley]

There's plenty of time to shift and the shifts in the Rigoletto "solo" are not that difficult (unless your shifting is not accurate), so what is there to gain by crossing strings? So, yeah, Barry gives good advice.

I'm perplexed though at why he suggests doing the C-F-E-D-C-C at the end, once on the G string and once on the D string. I can't think of any context where that would be a wise choice. It's high risk with low reward.

I find that he does this quite a lot on his videos - see his version of "The Elephant" for example. He says that he does that to add "color" (tone and timbre). I think if you have the confidence to pull it off, works well, IMHO.

 

[neilG]

The only colour you need is playing in tune and in time - the rest doesn’t matter.

Having performed this a few times, I have to mostly agree with this. It's one thing to play it beautifully and expressively in an audition, but quite another when you have to be in a pit, far from the cellist, and try and match what they're doing. The bass is there to enhance the cello line, IMO. If you can get it perfectly in tune with the cellist, and match phrasing, it'll sound great. Nobody will care how you finger it unless what you do sticks out.

 

[C Marks]

The only colour you need is playing in tune and in time - the rest doesn’t matter.

I agree. I have performed this solo dozens of times with various orchestras. Each time I played it perfectly in tune, I‘ve never had any complaints about my ‘colour’

 

[gerry grable]

There's plenty of time to shift and the shifts in the Rigoletto "solo" are not that difficult (unless your shifting is not accurate), so what is there to gain by crossing strings? So, yeah, Barry gives good advice.

I'm perplexed though at why he suggests doing the C-F-E-D-C-C at the end, once on the G string and once on the D string. I can't think of any context where that would be a wise choice. It's high risk with low reward.

All this being said, Barry's videos are great. They were one of the first of their kind and very innovative and well-produced for their day (well-produced even by today's standards). Back in 2013, most bassists were still too afraid to put themselves out there on video playing excerpts, much less even wanting to give lectures about them. To this day, as many major symphony musicians from Barry's day are retiring, they have gone their entire careers with most people not knowing what they really sound like on excerpts except for the students who take lessons with them. Different generation for sure, but Barry was thinking like a young guy.

Glad too see that someone other than I appreciates the excellent videos by Barry Lieberman. I never had a bass teacher so he was invaluable to me. I have many of his tutorials on my iPad. As far as "color", he simply had a very discerning ear.

 

[Neil Pye]

I agree. I have performed this solo dozens of times with various orchestras. Each time I played it perfectly in tune, I‘ve never had any complaints about my ‘colour’

Do we do this just to avoid people complaining? All those years of education and practice to produce the bare minimum to get by? Am I the only one who thinks that's a shame?

 

[AndersLasson]

Interested to read opinions as to whether you generally cross strings OR as suggested by Barry Lieberman, avoid as much a possible?

Do you have a copy of the notes for this part to share?
Where does Barry Lieberman discuss the fingering of this music?

BR, Anders

 

[neilG]

Do we do this just to avoid people complaining? All those years of education and practice to produce the bare minimum to get by? Am I the only one who thinks that's a shame?

The skill level required to blend with the cello in this passage is very high. I would hardly call that a "bare minimum". The cello player is NOT going to be accommodating you in any way, IME. Save the fancy stuff for auditions.

 

[elberon]

Do you have a copy of the notes for this part to share?
Where does Barry Lieberman discuss the fingering of this music?

BR, Anders

Barry Lieberman has a youtube channel under his name, the Verdi Rigoletto video is in there. Look up Verdi Rigoletto on IMSLP, it's public domain and all the orchestral parts, including double bass, are available there. The solo is also included in some editions of the Simandl Method book toward the end with all the orchestral excerpts.

 

[Paps]

try and match what they're doing. The bass is there to enhance the cello line, IMO. If you can get it perfectly in tune with the cellist, and match phrasing, it'll sound great

We seem to have such an inferiority complex with regard to cello's. Such a pity.

 

[AGCurry]

We seem to have such an inferiority complex with regard to cello's. Such a pity.

Not an inferiority complex, because that's an internal thing.

I respect the cello's (and its players') agility relative to the bass. I'm happy to play the supporter, and that the cellos usually get busier parts than do we. I think the perceived inferiority comes from others, because there is little understanding of the challenges we face. And - let's face it - a reasonably-competent cellist can make solo repertoire sing, while it takes a really-good bassist to do so.

One of my main complaints about orchestral repertoire is that much of it seems to be written without a) a good grasp of how to use the bass well, and b) a grasp of what the bassist can and can't do well.

Examples:
1. I'm supposed to switch from pizz to arco without a rest?
2. You can write those notes for me to play, and I may be able to play them, but what will it sound like when four of us play them in a reverberant hall with those freakin' tympani booming away?
3. I'm doubling the celli note for note (down an octave, of course). Were we an afterthought?

 

[neilG]

2. You can write those notes for me to play, and I may be able to play them, but what will it sound like when four of us play them in a reverberant hall with those freakin' tympani booming away?

A pet peeve. I'm talkin' to you, Beethoven.

 

[Don Kasper]

I'm talkin' to you, Beethoven.

He can't hear you, FYI.

 

[Paps]

One of my main complaints about orchestral repertoire is that much of it seems to be written without a) a good grasp of how to use the bass well, and b) a grasp of what the bassist can and can't do well.

For better or worse, the modern bass set-up ought to leave it a lot more versatile than when a lot of this music was composed. I'm thinking modern strings, shorter stop length, 4-5 strings rather than 3, lower action etc.
Compare this to the days when bass players used gloves.
I once read a description of Dragonetti's hands. Large, deformed with large callouses on the fingers.

 

[Carl Hillman]

He can't hear you, FYI.

A pet peeve. I'm talkin' to you, Beethoven.

Everybody told Beethoven he didn't know how to write for the bass, but he didn't listen.

 

[Neil Pye]

The skill level required to blend with the cello in this passage is very high. I would hardly call that a "bare minimum". The cello player is NOT going to be accommodating you in any way, IME. Save the fancy stuff for auditions.

If that's the attitude cellists give you, you need to find new people to play with IMHO. I've played this 3 times. All 3 times the principal cello has put time aside to rehearse with me and discuss how we want it to go. Music should be collaborative, surely?

 

[Paps]

Everybody told Beethoven he didn't know how to write for the bass, but he didn't listen.

Apparently Beethoven met Dragonetti who played the bass for him.
Beethovan was so impressed, that he through his arms around him in congratulations.
This may explain the degree of difficulty of some of Beethoven's bass parts.

Yes, and em, as has been said, Beethoven was deaf...
So Dragonetti looked good playing the bass....