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Double Bass Db major scale and general 3rd finger usage

Steve Freides

Steve Freides

Former Mannes College Theory Faculty
Supporting Member
Dec 11, 2007
2,576
1,508
Ridgewood, NJ
#1
Background - lifelong musician, including guitar and electric bass. New to upright bass.

I'm working my way through Simandl and I'm to the half position that is, I think, between II and III. There's a Db major scale in there, fingered

Third String: Db-1, Eb-4
Second String: F-1, Gb-2, Ab-4
First String: Bb-1, C-2, Db-4

I don't have the book in front of me but I think that's how they do it.

Perhaps because I've been a guitar player for a long time, I have no problem fingering this scale as follows:

Third String: Db-2, Eb-4
Second String: F-1, Gb-2, Ab-4
First String: Bb-1, C-3, Db-4

Or even using 4 for C and Db.

Am I going down some horrible path that will later leap up and bite me if I use my third finger in a lower position than is normal for upright bass?

Thanks in advance.

-S-
 
#2
I'm working on the same thing right now in Simandl. My teacher tells me that both fingerings work, yours being the contemporary fingering and the other fingering being the "Traditional" fingering which arose from avoidance of the E and A strings back when Gut strings were in more common use. Your Simandl book should have both fingerings there. My teacher has me play the scale both ways. If correct, and in tune, they should sound the same. In Simandl you learn the Db major right after the III pos. exercises. Half position is with your first finger on Bb. And you'd be using your 4th finger in that position, 3rd finger doesn't come along till later I think.

I play EB too so I know where you're coming from with that fingering. It all still works from EB to DB, just different technique, approaches due to limitations, etc.

EDIT: I read your post, silly me. The fingering in Simandl and yours are the same thing, its just that oon up right, for the lower positions, you use your 1st second and fourth fingers. The shape you you remembered on the guitar is still the same. What I was blabbing about before refers to the other fingering Simandl has for the Db scale.
 
#3
SteveFreides said:
Background - lifelong musician, including guitar and electric bass. New to upright bass.


Third String: Db-2, Eb-4
Second String: F-1, Gb-2, Ab-4
First String: Bb-1, C-3, Db-4

Or even using 4 for C and Db. --- No - not two 4s in a row..

Am I going down some horrible path that will later leap up and bite me if I use my third finger in a lower position than is normal for upright bass?

Thanks in advance.

Normal is what works. If it doesn't work for you, then its not normal...

The above is a classic "open hand" technique vs the classic "closed hand" tech. of Simandl. Both are correct but the choice would depend on the musical circumstances. If the distances are a little too much this far down (in pitch), you can also add a slight pivot between 2 and 4 and even 3 and 4 to take the strain (BAD!) off the left hand.
Tom Gale
ASODB.com
4 for both C and Db - BAD!!!!
Click to expand...
 
#5
jallenbass said:
The Galamian and Flesch violin books both have the player use the 4th finger on the 7th AND 8th scale degrees of the 3rd octave. Since we're advocating "non-traditional" bass techniques then why not? Violinists have been doing it for years.
Click to expand...

In the Db scale - which we were talking about - the C to Db woud be finishing the phrase and "usually", its not good to separate the last two with a shift - 4 to 4. "Usually", 1,2 or 2,4, or 3,4, is more musical. I say "usually" because there can be exceptions, depending on the musical situation.
TG
 
#6
I say "usually" because there can be exceptions, depending on the musical situation.
TG[/QUOTE]

I just thought of one. I've seen violinists use that 4 to 4 at the end of very melodic phrase to add a slight portamento to the finish. It doesn't usually work that well on bass.
TG
 
#7
I would think that it's ok on violin because the distance is much less. Even in lower positions on the violin the distance is so small that a little slide isn't much. On bass, especially C-Db, is bigger distance so it might not work as well.

I think that you should do whatever fingering works best for you. I say learn the traditional, then adapt so that you can play the best you can. I totally use different fingerings in the upper registers (more like an electric bass) and it works. My teacher would never do that, but his way is harder for me.
 
#9
There is nothing "new" or "non-traditional" about using 3rd finger in the lower registers. There is nothing controversial about the technique, and you won't damage yourself by using it. What I have found with good players that use 3rd finger is that they are very well-grounded in the Simandl fingering system and play in tune with any method. What I have found with out of tune bass players who are converts from other instruments is that they try to adapt the 1-2-3-4 guitar technique to the bass. Often this is done because, the 1-2-3-4 fingering systems from the EB world seem to make more sense. But remember, that the EB has frets. Think of the Simandl fingerings as a sure-fire way to play in tune and wit solid technique. Think of the 3rd finger as a way to extend Simandl. Stick with the 1-2-4 unless you are absolutely sure you can play in tune with your adaptations.
 
#10
I've been away for a couple of days - thank you to everyone for the discussion thus far.

If you'll forgive a different but related question before a return to the original topic, Simandl, on page 8, advocates keeping the fingers together. I quote:

"While playing with the second, the first finger must remain upon the string and assist the second in pressing it against the finger-board. In a like manner the third finger must be supported by the first and second and the fourth by the first, second and third."

Is this the "open" versus "closed" hand positions someone mentioned in this thread? One thing I'd like to know is whether I should find fault with a bass teacher who doesn't teach the closed hand style? I have a 10-year-old guitar student who is also playing upright bass, and I was very surprised to find her teacher hadn't mentioned this at all to her. My teacher is primarily a jazz/pop player and not old-fashioned in any way, but she made a point of explaining this to me.

As to whether certain fingerings lend themselve to playing in tune more, etc., I have perfect pitch and actually have quite a difficult time _not_ playing in tune, so that's not really a concern for me. My good ears have come in very handy learning to play the upright bass - I ended up playing in the pit of a show after playing for only 3 weeks, substituting for my teacher, because it was 95% pizz and, with my background, it wasn't hard for me to do. (Perhaps I should have added to "lifelong musician" the fact that I'm a former theory and ear-training teacher, at Mannes College in NYC.) The challenges, for me, will be in playing orchestral music with a bow - the bow is still tough for me to be consistently good with, and I know it will be years before I feel like I have bow technique that I can depend on.

Thanks again, everyone, and I am looking forward to your further responses.

-S-
 
#11
I like to use that Simandl fingering for practice, with all the shifts and non-resonant tones it is great practice. I use it as a gage for how well that area of my technique is holding up at any given time. I strongly reccomend being able to play it that way before throwing it out.

In performance, there are far better options, such as the many listed in this thread.

When I teach it, I have the student learn the Simandl fingering and learn the excersise that goes with it, once they are comfortable with that, I go over the many other options.
 
#12
"While playing with the second, the first finger must remain upon the string and assist the second in pressing it against the finger-board. In a like manner the third finger must be supported by the first and second and the fourth by the first, second and third."

This was necessary for the 100 year old bass setup- high action, gut strings, etc. I learned to play on that setup and it also helped in establishing a stronger hand position for beginners. Things started to change in the 50's - 60's. Thin, responsive strings with low action changed the whole list of possibilities and new doors opened wide for those willing to try something else.
Tom Gale
ASDODB.com
 
#13
TomGale said:
"While playing with the second, the first finger must remain upon the string and assist the second in pressing it against the finger-board. In a like manner the third finger must be supported by the first and second and the fourth by the first, second and third."

This was necessary for the 100 year old bass setup- high action, gut strings, etc. I learned to play on that setup and it also helped in establishing a stronger hand position for beginners. Things started to change in the 50's - 60's. Thin, responsive strings with low action changed the whole list of possibilities and new doors opened wide for those willing to try something else.
Tom Gale
ASDODB.com
Click to expand...

While I do agree with you - not everyone has low action. For a powerful unamplified sound in jazz groups and other situations we still need to have the strings up a bit, which explains why I prefer the basic Simandl technique whenever possible.
I am not at all into limiting myself to what can be played with that so all the new methods are very important to be aware of.
 
#14
i've found that pivoting as was originally printed in the OP's Simandl keeps me more in tune durring quick or or repeated passages where as using my third finger that far down can be iffy for my tone and intonation when put into context away from just playing a scale
 
#15
I've noticed that, while I'm trying to follow Simandl's fingerings, when the going gets faster, once in a while I revert to a more guitar-like fingering, and this feels like an OK compromise solution. I was playing on Page 23 of my copy of Simandl yesterday, Exercises in the Third Position, #7. It's in A-major and one of the first things I've hit with a lot of eighth notes.

On the last line, there's a steady stream of eighths for the last few bars, and that's where I find my guitar player instinct kicks in but I don't think it's a bad thing here. E.g., there's a passage that, on the first string, goes

G#, A, A#, B, C#

and I took it as 1, 2, 3, 4, 4. After that it heads down. Kind of hard to look at a relatively quick chromatic passage and not use every finger available. :)

-S-
 
#16
I struggle with pitch, so simandl has been a god send to me. But in your case, with your background and perfect pitch, it would seem that the only issue for the OP is physical strain and potential injury. I would humbly suggest that you try to look closely at the mechanics you are using with with a four finger technique down low, maybe run that Db scale a million times in a row and see how it feels. You can also get up with an alexander technique expert to make sure you aren't doing yourself a dammage. You should also look into the Rabbath technique, which I believe uses all four fingers in all the positions and is a very well established and legit technique. As far as the open hand technique vs closed hand technique, I think anyone trying to use an open left hand on the upright bass is in for trouble, especially if you are trying to learn arco, because arco requires a heavier touch with the left hand.
Disclaimer: I would never give this advice to a beginner, it is only because of the OP's advanced musical training and ability that I think it is prudent that he jump ahead to more advanced techniques
 
#18
SteveFreides said:
G#, A, A#, B, C#

and I took it as 1, 2, 3, 4, 4. After that it heads down. Kind of hard to look at a relatively quick chromatic passage and not use every finger available. :)

Try it 1,2,1,2,4. That last 4 can be open hand 4 or - easier - just a 1/2 step pivot from the B2 to the C#4. Then pivot back down.
Tom Gale
asodb.com
Click to expand...
 
#20
Tom, would you or someone else please explain exactly what you mean by "pivot" - I'm not sure I'm understanding this terms correctly. As specific example would be great - do you mean you somehow switch fingers but at the same spot on the neck, this as a way of moving the hand up?

-S-
 

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