Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Dead spots.. Where are they typically, what does it sound like?
- Thread starter quadrogong
- Start date
when i get my`tone'
,dang things are all twangylike,,,and yet i can't (really) do any good lead stuff on em
,so what good are they above the(?) 4th fret or so(yeah when you get to tickle it `it's there')=but really!=
they are all dead unless you work em!
(man it's late i'm gettin stupid
,dang things are all twangylike,,,and yet i can't (really) do any good lead stuff on em,so what good are they above the(?) 4th fret or so(yeah when you get to tickle it `it's there')=but really!=they are all dead unless you work em!
(man it's late i'm gettin stupid
I guess the evidence is that graphite neck instruments (which use the same magnetic pickups as wooden neck basses, and that mostly use the same wooden bodies) have, for the most part, no dead spots. This is one of the primary marketing propositions of the graphite/carbon neck basses, and also the primary reason for graphite bars in bass necks (not for 'rigidity', but again, to move that deadspot to a place that is less bothersome).
However, I do not have the physics background to truly understand why this happens.
I guess another example is that basses with piezo pickup systems (non magnetic from what I understand) and standard wood construction are also hit with similar deadspots.
MaddAnthony_59
Supporting Member
- Dec 16, 2006
- 4,599
- 708
- Disclosures
- I Channel Surf During Commercials. (Drives my Wife CRAZY!!!)
From what I've seen / read on Dead Spots is that they USUALLY are caused by improper relief, and they are focused around the 6th fret.
With an 18" Steel Scale (Ruler to you Civilians!) set on Edge at the Nut running down, there should be .008" relief at the 6th fret. If you don't have that "Invisible to the Naked Eye" bit of relief, count on Dead Spots / buzzing / String Click etc...
With an 18" Steel Scale (Ruler to you Civilians!) set on Edge at the Nut running down, there should be .008" relief at the 6th fret. If you don't have that "Invisible to the Naked Eye" bit of relief, count on Dead Spots / buzzing / String Click etc...
MaddAnthony_59
Supporting Member
- Dec 16, 2006
- 4,599
- 708
- Disclosures
- I Channel Surf During Commercials. (Drives my Wife CRAZY!!!)
Adjusting a wooden neck rarely, if ever, has an impact on a deadspot. I agree with you that neck relief greatly impacts playability, buzzes, clicking, etc.
I have such a huge dead spot, when playing bass with a band I'l make sure the C on the G string is played quickly.
My whole note with the C on the G sounds like an 8th note.
I'll post a video this evening.
I never knew about the dead spot right until I started to learn to use the ''whole'' fretboard.
Try/examine/perform an autopsy before you buy the bass, lesson learned!
My whole note with the C on the G sounds like an 8th note.
I'll post a video this evening.
I never knew about the dead spot right until I started to learn to use the ''whole'' fretboard.
Try/examine/perform an autopsy before you buy the bass, lesson learned!
I had no idea what a "Steinberger" was - but I can guess now that it is a headless bass - right?
when i get my`tone'
they are all dead unless you work em!
Kinda like only playing the first three holes on a harmonica.
Yes, frets have no impact on dead spots. Fretless basses are just as prone to them.
Again, luckily, most basses, as I described in my first post, have 'typical' minor dead spots, usually just on the G string in that 4th to 7th fret range, that are just a slight bother (i.e., the fundamental of the note sounds just as strongly as all the other notes of the bass, and then decays at a somewhat faster rate than the other notes on the bass).
It is only IMO when you get a serious dead spot, where the fundamental either doesn't sound at all (very rare) or the fundamental of the note decays so quickly that you can notice it even when playing quarter notes, or where the dead spot is so severe that it also impacts the octave on the A string (relatively rare) that things become a bit ugly.
The original Steinberger was an all graphite/carbon instrument. It happened to be headless, but the point of the Steinberger example (similar to Modulus) is that the carbon fiber neck, in virtually all cases, reduces the classic dead spot to a zero issue. Of course, everything is a trade off. I much prefer to deal with a slight dead spot on one or two notes of the instrument than feeling that 'plastic' on my hands all night
This is moving to some interesting arenas on soundwave generation, resonances, attenuation and sustain, etc.
I'm beginning to think that the body actually ATTENUATES notes and doesn't really accentuate them as has been argued.
If one changes to a Hi-Mass bridge, then different notes are further attenuated while other notes are left to resonate in the strings much more noticeably from the values of the original bridge.
Actually that's not quite right since if you take the Lows down a few notches, the Hi/Mid frequencies just sound more positively, that's all.
Taking this to a logical conclusion then - the neck must have this same ability: Attenuation of certain notes or frequencies close to that note.
You cannot have it both way by saying a neck can knock out certain strings/positions and then say that the body adds to tone, when in probability it is under the same gun of physical law that would somehow act obtusely to that conclusion.
A higher mass object really doesn't requires more energy to make it resonate at lower frequencies when you consider the time/cyclic rate than at higher frequencies, so this is beginning to make sense.
I still don't like this mystery though; I need a common denominator to have this make better sense.
I'm beginning to think that the body actually ATTENUATES notes and doesn't really accentuate them as has been argued.
If one changes to a Hi-Mass bridge, then different notes are further attenuated while other notes are left to resonate in the strings much more noticeably from the values of the original bridge.
Actually that's not quite right since if you take the Lows down a few notches, the Hi/Mid frequencies just sound more positively, that's all.
Persons here have stated that the pop/slap ability (from stronger, clearer Mids & Hi's) is added to with the slight loss of lower boomer (Low) notes by changing to a BA or Gotoh, f'rinstance.
If you allow the low notes to be absorbed by the body because of the density and stability of the more massive bridge, then the higher notes sound more positively, at least to our ears and sonic perceptions.Taking this to a logical conclusion then - the neck must have this same ability: Attenuation of certain notes or frequencies close to that note.
You cannot have it both way by saying a neck can knock out certain strings/positions and then say that the body adds to tone, when in probability it is under the same gun of physical law that would somehow act obtusely to that conclusion.
A higher mass object really doesn't requires more energy to make it resonate at lower frequencies when you consider the time/cyclic rate than at higher frequencies, so this is beginning to make sense.
I still don't like this mystery though; I need a common denominator to have this make better sense.
I have never played a bass that didn't have dead spots - my Zons included. I do not think that design or construction can completely eliminate them. The question becomes how noticeable are they, and do they impact your playing. Some are so subtle that most people don't hear or feel them. In that case - zero issue. Others are subtle but may require a bit of technique change - minor issue. Still others are just damn dead. I don't buy those basses
That's all getting a bit over my head at this point
All I know is that virtually all wooden neck basses (regardless of scale or neck construction... laminate, 35" scale, neck through, whatever) have that telltale drop in the sustain fo the fundamental of the note on the G string between the 4th and 7th fret. Not sure exactly why, but I do know it is almost impossible to eliminate once it is there (i.e., once you build a bass and have a dead spot). The only technique that seems to have some impact in limited situations is the 'fat finger' type thing, which is basically clamping a weight onto the headstock to 'change the resonant frequency' of the neck slightly to 'move that deadspot'.
I have not experienced the fat finger myself, and am sensitive enough to these deadspots that I will not purchase an instrument (or keep one if I can't try it prior to purchase) that has a severe deadspot, so it is a bit of a moot issue for me.
Again, luckily, severe deadspots are quite rare, and the typical minor ones are easy to play around if needed (i.e., if you need to sustain that particular note in that particular octave, you get quite used to finding it in another position on the instrument)
The physics is complex but the ideas are sort of simple. Take a piece of flexible material (like wood) Now carve it into some shape (bass neck, headstock, body etc.) There are a couple of things that happen. If you vibrate (put a sound source onto) the object it will "resonate". Now, one way is that it flexes and bends back and forth. In other words the parts can sort of act like the tines of a tuning fork in a more complex way. Such vibrations can help create the "tone" of the bass. When an object vibrates there are places that vibrate a lot (like the end of the tines on a tuning fork) and some that don't vibrate at all (like the handle on a tuning fork). How and where and at what frequency any given object vibrates depends upon the material properties of the object, it's shape, and where you put the exciting vibrations in.
And there is more.
Sound waves travel in materials. They travel in wood. (Put your ear to your bass body and pluck a string. The sound is going right through the wood). Such sound waves travel in the wood (say down the neck) until they meet a "discontinuity" [end of the neck] At such a discontinuity they are reflected! Hence you get sound waves bouncing back and fourth INSIDE the instrument! These are called "standing waves". Where they "add" the vibrations are strong and where they "cancel" there is no vibration at all. These are called "nodes" and "anti-nodes".
The bottom line is that a string is imparting energy to the object that is your bass. If there is a condition of resonance at a certain point in the object that can suck energy out of the string and not let it ring freely, you have what is called a "dead spot". It's all too complex to actually calculate, but clearly the kind of wood, the shape of the wood, the properties of the wood (stiffness or as I discovered temperature!) all can have an effect on where this spot is located.
And that's how it works. You really didn't want to know all this crap, did you?
This is what happens on C on the G string on my Fender Jazz, decays to the octave higher harmonic fairly quickly and is overall quieter even on the initial attack than other notes even 2 frets away. So if I need to sustain that high C I do it at the 10th fret on the D string- problem solved, and it sounds beefier to begin with anyway.
Contrary to other posters I find that my neck through Spector also has a dead spot on the D on the G string, not as pronounced as the Fenders. In fact I only really notice it with my octaver- it can't track that note very well at all, only on the fastest eighth or sixteenth notes. If I want to hang on that with the octaver got to play around the 10-12 fret and hit that note on the D string.
I thought headless basses were the way to beat this design, as the neck's vibration nodes are moved and changed so as to defeat dead spots?
And that's how it works. You really didn't want to know all this crap, did you?
Actually, I did! Thanks!
