Double Bass Dealing with sustain-foam?

[Zbysek]

I have realised that in order to make my NS NXT EUB sound more DBish, I need to deal with (i.e. get rid of) its long sustain. Any tips/recommendations?

I am thinking about inserting piece of soft foam between string and the instrument's body... Does any of you do that? Could you please post pictures so I know how to do that.

Thank you.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I think higher damped strings (arco strings) sound better (more natural) than a foam damping.

 

[Wasnex]

I have realised that in order to make my NS NXT EUB sound more DBish, I need to deal with (i.e. get rid of) its long sustain. Any tips/recommendations?

I am thinking about inserting piece of soft foam between string and the instrument's body... Does any of you do that? Could you please post pictures so I know how to do that.

Thank you.

I used to play a US series NS Design 6-String. The current EU series is supposed to be the same thing. I know exactly what you mean and could never get the bass to sound anything like an acoustic upright.

I don't think the problem is exclusively with the incredible sustain. The bass also had an unusually strong fundamental and totally lacked thump. I tried to EQ in the thump, as well as using foam and cloth to dampen the strings, and was not satisfied with the results. Ultimately I just accepted the bass's unique voice for what it was. It was an incredible instrument that I greatly miss.

On most big band gigs I actually switched between the NS Design, a Yamaha TRB6P, and a traditional string bass. But sometimes when space was extremely limited, I just used the NS Design. The bass always drew lot's of interest at concerts for it's modern looks, and I don't remember any audience members ever complaining about the tone.

 

[madbanjoman]

In this video you can see the foam I have on my EUB. I think it helps cut the sustain.

 

[ArtechnikA]

I've done it. A bit of open-cell foam at the bridge. It worked as expected, but I recently quit using it since my string-muting technique has improved.
A true acoustic upright gets (some of) its damping from being a big air pump, which a solid-body EUB isn't...
Using Traditionals strings, the Arco position always, and running the treble knob at minimum all helped.
It's also been suggested to raise the action a bit at the bridge since evidently the stock setup is fairly low.
These all contribute a bit to a more acoustic sound, IME.

 

[Zbysek]

In this video you can see the foam I have on my EUB. I think it helps cut the sustain.

I can't see the foam I am afraid...where is it?

 

[Zbysek]

I think higher damped strings (arco strings) sound better (more natural) than a foam damping.

Which ones do you use and recommend? I plan to buy Daddario Traditionals. I am currently using Daddario Electric Contemporaries... Thank you.

 

[Zbysek]

I used to play a US series NS Design 6-String. The current EU series is supposed to be the same thing. I know exactly what you mean and could never get the bass to sound anything like an acoustic upright.

IMHO, the instrument sounds upright-y (enough for my purposes) with the switch in the arco position... The sustain is what distinguishes it the most from acoustic upright. That's why I am trying to deal with it...

The bass also had an unusually strong fundamental ..... I tried to EQ in the thump, as well as using foam and cloth to dampen the strings, and was not satisfied with the results.

That's correct. I have had success with HPF set between 40 and 70 Hz to get rid of that strong fundamental...

Ultimately I just accepted the bass's unique voice for what it was. It was an incredible instrument that I greatly miss.

I am no fool, so I am perfectly aware that EUB will never sound (and feel) exactly the same as acoustic upright. I am happy with what it is and how it sounds. But it is fun to experiment a little...

 

[Zbysek]

I've done it. A bit of open-cell foam at the bridge. It worked as expected, but I recently quit using it since my string-muting technique has improved.
A true acoustic upright gets (some of) its damping from being a big air pump, which a solid-body EUB isn't...
Using Traditionals strings, the Arco position always, and running the treble knob at minimum all helped.
It's also been suggested to raise the action a bit at the bridge since evidently the stock setup is fairly low.
These all contribute a bit to a more acoustic sound, IME.

Thank you. I plan to try all the tricks you have mentioned.

As I stated elsewhere: I feel that manual muting the string sounds different from dying-out of the string due to short sustain... That's why I plan to use the foam mutes...

 

[Wasnex]

IMHO, the instrument sounds upright-y (enough for my purposes) with the switch in the arco position... The sustain is what distinguishes it the most from acoustic upright. That's why I am trying to deal with it...



That's correct. I have had success with HPF set between 40 and 70 Hz to get rid of that strong fundamental...



I am no fool, so I am perfectly aware that EUB will never sound (and feel) exactly the same as acoustic upright. I am happy with what it is and how it sounds. But it is fun to experiment a little...

I certainly don't intend to infer you are a fool or to discourage experimentation; only to share my experience.

Raising the bridge and using different strings may prove beneficial. Also I have had some luck creating sort of a string bass sound with electric bass using some of my effects pedals: to include EQ, reverb, delay, and perhaps very light flanging. I didn't have any pedals when I had the NS Design bass, so I didn't try an effects with it.

The problem, IMHO, is the nature of the string bass sound changes with the range of the instrument you are playing. So if you trick the bass into sounding somewhat acoustic in the low range, it doesn't sound right in the high range and vice, versa. This was why I did not find the foam very useful. But the perhaps my experience was complicated because my bass was a 6-string.

IMHO the video in post #4 basically sounds the same as it would if he simply used technique to mute the strings. To my ears it does not sound convincing in the least, but this is IMHO and YMMV so if you find that type of sound useful, by all means use it.

Just to prove I am not against experimentation:
One crazy idea I had was to try some sort of silent speaker chamber with some EQ to create a sense of resonance. It might be possible to rig up a bit of a feedback loop with a mixer, that is just below the threshold of feedback, so there actually is a tuned acoustic resonance. Use parametric EQ to select the frequency range where the resonance develops and throw some reverb and digital delay on the signal.
AxeTrakBass | AxeTrak Isolation Cabinets and Devices
Or use an inductive Pultech style EQ, which also is supposed to be able to create a nice resonant sound.
|EQP-KT|Klarkteknik|P0BR4

 

[Zbysek]

I certainly don't intend to infer you are a fool or to discourage experimentation; only to share my experience.

I know, thank you.

Also I have had some luck creating sort of a string bass sound with electric bass using some of my effects pedals: to include EQ, reverb, delay, and perhaps very light flanging. I didn't have any pedals when I had the NS Design bass, so I didn't try an effects with it.

I have been experimenting with room reverb with mixed results...

The problem, IMHO, is the nature of the string bass sound changes with the range of the instrument you are playing. So if you trick the bass into sounding somewhat acoustic in the low range, it doesn't sound right in the high range and vice, versa.

That's correct...

Just to prove I am not against experimentation:
One crazy idea I had was to try some sort of silent speaker chamber with some EQ to create a sense of resonance. It might be possible to rig up a bit of a feedback loop with a mixer, that is just below the threshold of feedback, so there actually is a tuned acoustic resonance. Use parametric EQ to select the frequency range where the resonance develops and throw some reverb and digital delay on the signal.
AxeTrakBass | AxeTrak Isolation Cabinets and Devices
Or use an inductive Pultech style EQ, which also is supposed to be able to create a nice resonant sound.
|EQP-KT|Klarkteknik|P0BR4

Interesting...can you tell us more? Thank you.

 

[madbanjoman]

I can't see the foam I am afraid...where is it?

at the tail piece, here is a better pic:

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Which ones do you use and recommend? I plan to buy Daddario Traditionals. I am currently using Daddario Electric Contemporaries... Thank you.

I never use highly damped strings, but Jargar might work well or Kaplan or Belcanto. Or some really old set of strings that usually lasts for a year only (not Spiros).

BTW, the foam you didn’t found only damps the underlengths for unwanted resonances. This is a good idea (I do this sith my Clevinger and Staggs too, but doesn’t do what you want.

A rubber disk with a hole, called tone filter, the hole between bridge and string, might work. But they are mostly used for upper strings that are too bright initially.

The problem with the foam is that the higher frequencies are quickly damped and the lower ones hardly at all. So the sustain is mostly the same but the sound gets dark quickly. A wide piece of foam can also lead to buzzing.

 

[Wasnex]

Interesting...can you tell us more? Thank you.

Unfortunately these are just crazy ideas I haven't explored .

 

[Zbysek]

A rubber disk with a hole, called tone filter, the hole between bridge and string, might work. But they are mostly used for upper strings that are too bright initially.

Can you please post a link/picture? Thank you.

 

[Zbysek]

at the tail piece, here is a better pic:
View attachment 3533620

Oh, I see it now.

Does it kill the sustain? I thought the foam must be put above the bridge to do that...

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Oh, I see it now.

Does it kill the sustain? I thought the foam must be put above the bridge to do that...

As he and me said earlier: this is only damping the resonances from the underlengths. It is nevertheless important to do that is there is no moving/suspended tailpiece.

If you want to experiment with foam, use dense foam. But the problem is that for the lower partials you need to mount the foam not too close to the bridge and then you get buzzing from the strings which hammer against the foam.

You might ask @Francois Blais for advice. He has used Jargars on his EUB for less sustain and maybe he can give you better first hand advice.

For the „tone filter“, search for that name on Talkbass. There has been a picture how to use them too.
Basically a disk of rubber, about 2 to 2.5 cm in diameter, 1 to 2 mm thick, with a hole in the middle, about 5 mm in diameter. (When the string is under tension, it must lay in the groove at the bridge as normal. No rubber between bridge groove and string. )
Put it under the string at the bridge so that you can see the bridge string slot through the hole and tighten the string. The disk will bend and press against the string from the underside on both sides of the bridge.
This will kill brightness and is meant to be used for a new string until it calms down after a few weeks.
Thicker rubber disks will press more against the string and damp more.

You might get some valve seals in that form to experiment with. The hole might be a bit too small, but there are tools for making holes in leather that can be used for that. Or get some rubber rests somewhere and cut them yourself.
Or you can contact Pirastro asking for some tone filters for double bass strings. If you don’t ask for too many of them they might send them without charging anything.

 

[Zbysek]

As he and me said earlier: this is only damping the resonances from the underlengths. It is nevertheless important to do that is there is no moving/suspended tailpiece.

If you want to experiment with foam, use dense foam. But the problem is that for the lower partials you need to mount the foam not too close to the bridge and then you get buzzing from the strings which hammer against the foam.

You might ask @Francois Blais for advice. He has used Jargars on his EUB for less sustain and maybe he can give you better first hand advice.

For the „tone filter“, search for that name on Talkbass. There has been a picture how to use them too.
Basically a disk of rubber, about 2 to 2.5 cm in diameter, 1 to 2 mm thick, with a hole in the middle, about 5 mm in diameter. (When the string is under tension, it must lay in the groove at the bridge as normal. No rubber between bridge groove and string. )
Put it under the string at the bridge so that you can see the bridge string slot through the hole and tighten the string. The disk will bend and press against the string from the underside on both sides of the bridge.
This will kill brightness and is meant to be used for a new string until it calms down after a few weeks.
Thicker rubber disks will press more against the string and damp more.

You might get some valve seals in that form to experiment with. The hole might be a bit too small, but there are tools for making holes in leather that can be used for that. Or get some rubber rests somewhere and cut them yourself.
Or you can contact Pirastro asking for some tone filters for double bass strings. If you don’t ask for too many of them they might send them without charging anything.

Thank you for the explanation...

 

[Wasnex]

As he and me said earlier: this is only damping the resonances from the underlengths. It is nevertheless important to do that is there is no moving/suspended tailpiece.

If you want to experiment with foam, use dense foam. But the problem is that for the lower partials you need to mount the foam not too close to the bridge and then you get buzzing from the strings which hammer against the foam.

You might ask @Francois Blais for advice. He has used Jargars on his EUB for less sustain and maybe he can give you better first hand advice.

For the „tone filter“, search for that name on Talkbass. There has been a picture how to use them too.
Basically a disk of rubber, about 2 to 2.5 cm in diameter, 1 to 2 mm thick, with a hole in the middle, about 5 mm in diameter. (When the string is under tension, it must lay in the groove at the bridge as normal. No rubber between bridge groove and string. )
Put it under the string at the bridge so that you can see the bridge string slot through the hole and tighten the string. The disk will bend and press against the string from the underside on both sides of the bridge.
This will kill brightness and is meant to be used for a new string until it calms down after a few weeks.
Thicker rubber disks will press more against the string and damp more.

You might get some valve seals in that form to experiment with. The hole might be a bit too small, but there are tools for making holes in leather that can be used for that. Or get some rubber rests somewhere and cut them yourself.
Or you can contact Pirastro asking for some tone filters for double bass strings. If you don’t ask for too many of them they might send them without charging anything.

Here's a graphic for the tone filters so everyone can visualize a bit easier:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[Zbysek]

Here's a graphic for the tone filters so everyone can visualize a bit easier:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Thank you