dear sound guy, thanks. (di box content)

[akaTRENT]

Thank u for ignoring the fact that I asked u to use my speaker mic on my cab instead of the di. I don't bring an svt and an 8x10 to a gig for my health. Thank u for ignoring half of what makes my tone and saying I can just use my cab as a moniter. Thanks for ignoring my post amp and my speakers even thougj it makes exactly half of my tone. Thanks as usual because after all "I'm just the bassist"

edit for clarity:
And heres the part of the story i forgot to mention! I agree with everything you just said and totally understand that sometimes "my mix" will sound like garbage foh. And heres the kicker, I asked him if he could blend my signals like your saying, he said yeah no problem. when i got on stage he didnt do that. he just took the di. I think blending is the best way to do it but most of these sounds guys are friggin lazy. It doesnt take much effort to plug one more cable in...

and just for to clarify for some people here are my exact settings. using an svt cl. and an 8x10e
0db input. Gain: 3 Bass:3.5-4 Mid:6 (Mid selector 3 "800"hz") Treble: 5.5 Master: 2 (when im being miced through a pa) and around 5-6 at lets say like a vfw hall.

Im not so heavy on the bass more on the mids thats why it makes me more confused.
__________________

 

[JimmyM]

I hear ya...happened to me a couple times as well. Next time, unplug the DI.

 

[akaTRENT]

I hear ya...happened to me a couple times as well. Next time, unplug the DI.

I think my plan of action is going to be one of two things. get a micro vr, and save my back (i only turn the svt up to like 1.5- 2 at most gigs anyway)

or i can just get a cable with an xlr on side and 1/4 on the other. Ill connect that to the sm on my cab and plug it in the di when the sound guy walks away.

That would work no?


and jimmy i had one other question. When the guy used the di box i noticed he plugged my bass cable into the input. does that mean he wasn't talking the signal from the direct out on my head?

 

[two fingers]

This gets brought up a lot. And I chime in every time (even though I get flamed most of the time). You see, I'm a sound man AND a bassist. The problem is that the EQ that you use to get "your tone" through your rig won't work (sometimes) out front. You are setting your EQ to get big fat bass from a 8-10 or 4-10 cab. The SAME EQ settings might sound like PURE MUD through some 2-18 subs and huge PA cabs. The physics are totally different. My suggestion is to ask the guy to do a blend. Run DI AND a mic (or line out from your rig, whichever you like best). Let him blend the two to get something he can use out front. Unless he's just being a jerk, he shouldn't have a problem with that. I too own an Ampeg stack (AND an SWR stack for that matter). The simple fact of the matter is that "your " sound might not sit well in a mix, or may just sound like crap through HUGE PA cabs. But, again, I feel sure that if you ask nicely, any good sound man would have no problem doing a blend so that you can send some of the tone you dig out front. And also, you are not alone. There are tons of people in the "Why in the hell am I dragging around this huge rig if that A$$HOLE isn't even gonna use my tone?" club. I don't know ALL the details about why it's so, but MOST of the time, running direct just sounds better out front. Good luck.

 

[akaTRENT]

This gets brought up a lot. And I chime in every time (even though I get flamed most of the time). You see, I'm a sound man AND a bassist. The problem is that the EQ that you use to get "your tone" through your rig won't work (sometimes) out front. You are setting your EQ to get big fat bass from a 8-10 or 4-10 cab. The SAME EQ settings might sound like PURE MUD through some 2-18 subs and huge PA cabs. The physics are totally different. My suggestion is to ask the guy to do a blend. Run DI AND a mic (or line out from your rig, whichever you like best). Let him blend the two to get something he can use out front. Unless he's just being a jerk, he shouldn't have a problem with that. I too own an Ampeg stack (AND an SWR stack for that matter). The simple fact of the matter is that "your " sound might not sit well in a mix, or may just sound like crap through HUGE PA cabs. But, again, I feel sure that if you ask nicely, any good sound man would have no problem doing a blend so that you can send some of the tone you dig out front. And also, you are not alone. There are tons of people in the "Why in the hell am I dragging around this huge rig if that A$$HOLE isn't even gonna use my tone?" club. I don't know ALL the details about why it's so, but MOST of the time, running direct just sounds better out front. Good luck.

And heres the part of the story i forgot to mention! I agree with everything you just said and totally understand that sometimes "my mix" will sound like garbage foh. And heres the kicker, I asked him if he could blend my signals like your saying, he said yeah no problem. when i got on stage he didnt do that. he just took the di. I think blending is the best way to do it but most of these sounds guys are friggin lazy.

and just for to clarify for some people here are my exact settings. using an svt cl. and an 8x10e
0db input. Gain: 3 Bass:3.5-4 Mid:6 (Mid selector 3 "800"hz") Treble: 5.5 Master: 2 (when im being miced through a pa) and around 5-6 at lets say like a vfw hall.

Im not so heavy on the bass more on the mids thats why it makes me more confused.

 

[two fingers]

In THAT case, it's just being lazy like you said. Having done it dozens of times I can tell you that it only takes seconds to run another mic cable from your line out to the snake.

 

[akaTRENT]

This gets brought up a lot. And I chime in every time (even though I get flamed most of the time). You see, I'm a sound man AND a bassist..

We need more of these. seriously.

 

[modulusman]

And heres the part of the story i forgot to mention! I agree with everything you just said and totally understand that sometimes "my mix" will sound like garbage foh. And heres the kicker, I asked him if he could blend my signals like your saying, he said yeah no problem. when i got on stage he didnt do that. he just took the di. I think blending is the best way to do it but most of these sounds guys are friggin lazy.

and just for to clarify for some people here are my exact settings. using an svt cl. and an 8x10e
0db input. Gain: 3 Bass:3.5-4 Mid:6 (Mid selector 3 "800"hz") Treble: 5.5 Master: 2 (when im being miced through a pa) and around 5-6 at lets say like a vfw hall.

Im not so heavy on the bass more on the mids thats why it makes me more confused.

If you are playing in a multiple band setting get use to it. Between changeovers the fact that you want to mic and DI your bass is way down on the list of what the soundman is concerned about. If you get to the point where you are the headliner or the only band on the bill then you can do it your way. Until then you are SOL.

 

[Chad Michael]

...You see, I'm a sound man AND a bassist. The problem is that the EQ that you use to get "your tone" through your rig won't work (sometimes) out front. You are setting your EQ to get big fat bass from a 8-10 or 4-10 cab. The SAME EQ settings might sound like PURE MUD through some 2-18 subs and huge PA cabs. The physics are totally different. My suggestion is to ask the guy to do a blend. Run DI AND a mic (or line out from your rig, whichever you like best). Let him blend the two to get something he can use out front. Unless he's just being a jerk, he shouldn't have a problem with that. I too own an Ampeg stack (AND an SWR stack for that matter). The simple fact of the matter is that "your " sound might not sit well in a mix, or may just sound like crap through HUGE PA cabs. But, again, I feel sure that if you ask nicely, any good sound man would have no problem doing a blend so that you can send some of the tone you dig out front. And also, you are not alone. There are tons of people in the "Why in the hell am I dragging around this huge rig if that A$$HOLE isn't even gonna use my tone?" club. I don't know ALL the details about why it's so, but MOST of the time, running direct just sounds better out front. Good luck.

I agree 110%

I was also the bassist and soundman for my band for many years, the above post is right.

 

[akaTRENT]

If you are playing in a multiple band setting get use to it. Between changeovers the fact that you want to mic and DI your bass is way down on the list of what the soundman is concerned about. If you get to the point where you are the headliner or the only band on the bill then you can do it your way. Until then you are SOL.

It takes 30 seconds or less to plug one more cable in. That's a bad excuse.
Even the sound guy in the thread would agree with me on that one. (two fingers)
If they could do it for me at the Bamboozle festival, a show that really has time constraints, the bar dude can sure as heck do it.

I should just sell my amp right now and just go direct from my bass from now on.

and furthermore, lets just go di on the guitars too.

oh if only the drums had a di.

And I know i sound a bit mean but man, i worked so hard to be able to afford that setup and i break my back everytime i bring it out to play. So its very frusting when i put in all that work and money and the sound guy cant unravel one extra cable.

 

[JimmyM]

Well here's my deal...I know how to EQ the cab to sound good in the house, and I always do. Plus any soundman worth his salt should be able to EQ the bass to sound good in the mix no matter what's coming out of the cab. And I really hate being second guessed by the soundman.

It's gotten easier for me since I went back to the DI, but when I was using a mic, I used to really resent soundmen who would second guess me like they're the all-knowing masters of time and space and I'm just a stupid-ass bass player coming up to whack himself off. I still resent soundmen who treat me like that, too. Fortunately I'm in a position where I can do something about it Soundmen who do that to me or anyone else in the band usually don't end up working with us a second time.

 

[akaTRENT]

Fortunately I'm in a position where I can do something about it Soundmen who do that to me or anyone else in the band usually don't end up working with us a second time.

And I will hopefully work up to this point

 

[JustDavid]

Anyone ever tried this: "I'm not quite ready yet, so it'd be more efficient to rig up the DI for the guitarist first. When you're done that, THEN let's do mine."?

 

[Marcus Willett]

This gets brought up a lot. And I chime in every time (even though I get flamed most of the time). You see, I'm a sound man AND a bassist. The problem is that the EQ that you use to get "your tone" through your rig won't work (sometimes) out front. You are setting your EQ to get big fat bass from a 8-10 or 4-10 cab. The SAME EQ settings might sound like PURE MUD through some 2-18 subs and huge PA cabs.

You're right, this does get brought up a lot. I actually understand everything you are saying and agree with it to a large extent but what I would love to hear, have asked for many times and have never seen is a fact-based, evidence-supported answer to the question:

How is it that the above mentioned scenario does not apply to guitar as well?

In fact if not moreso since the guitarist is drastically coloring his sound and it therefore in all likelihood would be even less transferable to FOH.

While we're at it, an even better one IMO is this:

If the argument is that the soundman is best equipped to determine what "works" in terms of bass tone out front...that he should have the bass tone without any electrical modifications to the tone that will make it more difficult to "work"....that he should have the ultimate say in crafting my sound...

Shouldn't that extend further? Why should he not then have at least some say in my choice of pickups? Or strings? Or hand position and technique?

In fact any of those factors could make a huge difference in tone and could muddy things up and/or make the bass tone "un-workable". Indeed, mechanical adjustments can impact the tone nearly as much as electronic ones so it seems reasonable that if the soundman gets to decide what my tone starts with from an electronic standpoint, why should he not have at least some say (if not all...he does from an electronic standpoint, generally) in the mechanics of the tone being generated?

Oh, sure; I've heard the "That's ridiculous/not the same thing" response, but never really had anyone explain specifically why.

Easy example:

Soundman says "Hey man, the signal from the mic is muddy. I need to run a DI."

OK, so I hear the sound coming through the mains and it's nothing but click and clack. We're playing a tune where I want a fat bass tone that's dark....it's what suits the tune. I pluck very lightly by the neck, yielding a very different tone that what he was getting from me a moment ago when I was playing hard over the bridge. Otherwise I have made no electrical adjustments of any kind.

If I had made an electrical adjustment to get that different tone (tone control, active EQ, pickup blending...whatever) most would feel the soundman would have within his purview to say "Hey, don't do that, it's not "working" out front"

If that is the reasoning should it not also be within his purview to nix any mechanical adjustments to tone as well? Their impact on the tone....determining whether it "works" are just as substantial....why would that be different?

Just some thoughts....

 

[hbarcat]

You're right, this does get brought up a lot. I actually understand everything you are saying and agree with it to a large extent but what I would love to hear, have asked for many times and have never seen is a fact-based, evidence-supported answer to the question:

How is it that the above mentioned scenario does not apply to guitar as well?

In fact if not moreso since the guitarist is drastically coloring his sound and it therefore in all likelihood would be even less transferable to FOH. . . . .

Another bassist and soundman, here.

The bass is fundamentally different to run sound for than the guitar because it's the low frequencies that cause the mud in a room. With the guitar, the sound guy is just going to roll those off so they aren't a problem. Even if the guitarist has his EQ such that he's got tons of low end coming out of his cab, it still isn't going to be any more than a fraction of what a bass cab will be putting out - and it's going to be cut anyway on the mixing board.

With the bass cab, the low frequencies are essential for the room sound and they need to be EQed properly and fine tuned. It's tough to do if the bassist has gone nuts with his EQ (maybe he's boosted at 30Hz, cut at 60Hz and boosted again at 200Hz.) and this might be a nightmare for the sound guy to deal with.

Still, any decent sound guy will always be able to get you "your tone" by both running a DI and micing your cab and blending the two. It's easy enough to get you "your tone" with the mic channel with the lows rolled off and then blending in the DI to get the balanced lows that the room needs.

 

[Marcus Willett]

Another bassist and soundman, here.

The bass is fundamentally different to run sound for than the guitar because it's the low frequencies that cause the mud in a room. With the guitar, the sound guy is just going to roll those off so they aren't a problem. Even if the guitarist has his EQ such that he's got tons of low end coming out of his cab, it still isn't going to be any more than a fraction of what a bass cab will be putting out - and it's going to be cut anyway on the mixing board.

I'll buy that argument below 100Hz or so, but often there is a tremendous amount of information in that range coming from keys, kick and guitar. That range is a pain to deal with, absolutely (I've done some sound myself), but in all other cases except bass it's accommodated.

In fact, you just helped me prove my point.
"Even if the guitarist has his EQ such that he's got tons of low end coming out of his cab, it still isn't going to be any more than a fraction of what a bass cab will be putting out - and it's going to be cut anyway on the mixing board"

Exactly. The soundman will start with micing his sound, and make whatever adjustments necessary for that room.

That is not the same thing that happens to bass when taking a DI from the bass. The soundman is not doing what you just suggested (and I agree with); rather his is creating his idea of what your tone should be in addition to modifying it for the room. It is not the same standard at all.

I don't suggest (nor have I ever) that the soundman shouldn't have the right (in fact it is his job) to make adjustments to my sound to make it work in that room. But that is not what happens in your typical scenario and the defense for that protocol is usually weak.

I've often seen soundmen spend tremendous amounts of time on a troublesome room with a kick drum. And of course, like you suggested...they will have to make adjustments to a guitarists' sound after he has gotten his sound.

I'm not saying you are advocating those specific positions, but I see that a lot.

 

[Ben Clarke]

Also a bassist and sound guy, though I don't like to work too hard so haven't doing much live work lately.

I never like to see an 8x10 onstage. I'm always stuck fighting stgage volume, even if the bassist thinks they are keeping it under control. If miced, I would only use the highs anyhow. Of course, the guy'll complain if I put a 57 on it so I have to put a real mic on it and dump the low end on the channel eq... It's a pain.

I would bet that the "jerk" had plenty of your tone coming off the stage and just didn't need the mic signal.

 

[modulusman]

It takes 30 seconds or less to plug one more cable in. That's a bad excuse.
Even the sound guy in the thread would agree with me on that one. (two fingers)
If they could do it for me at the Bamboozle festival, a show that really has time constraints, the bar dude can sure as heck do it.

I should just sell my amp right now and just go direct from my bass from now on.

and furthermore, lets just go di on the guitars too.

oh if only the drums had a di.

And I know i sound a bit mean but man, i worked so hard to be able to afford that setup and i break my back everytime i bring it out to play. So its very frusting when i put in all that work and money and the sound guy cant unravel one extra cable.

Do you know for sure that the soundman had an available channel on the board? If you're playing in some dive bar on a crappy PA then as I said before chances are you are SOL. At the bamboozle festival you were playing further up the foodchain, better PA,better soundmen. The funny thing is the further you get up the food chain the less important your amp becomes.

 

[Ben Clarke]

and besides, a mic half an inch off the cone of one of your 10"s has nothing to do with what you think your tone is...

 

[Marcus Willett]

I would bet that the "jerk" had plenty of your tone coming off the stage and just didn't need the mic signal.

Quite possibly.

As a somewhat humorous aside (and better perhaps an example of the kind of attitude I see a lot towards bassists)

I was doing a club gig years back where the keyboardist was constantly complaining that the bass was too loud on stage. I kept turning down (to the point where I really couldn't hear myself at all) and he still kept making faces and yelling.

Now I'll grant you that my next act was very unprofessional...

I got so pissed I turned my amp OFF. There was also NO bass in the monitors at all. Still the guy was complaining (he was unaware I had turned off).

Turns out it was the low end off HIS rig coming through the monitors that was making everything thunderous although that thought had never occurred to him and the soundman had made no effort to adjust his EQ to work for the room, the keyboardist didn't want his sound messed with.

Guess who was expected to yield?