Double Bass Deciphering Pat Metheny's Comment

[Bruce Calin]

Rather than learn and forget, the idea is to internalize it. You are creating a faster path to the idea when you need it.

Better choice of words.

 

[PauFerro]

Beyond that, as regards the remaining 5 notes and their magnetic pull, Kenny Werner is fond of saying “there are no wrong notes, only awkward resolutions”. While it’s tempting to try to codify things - the two easiest ones are the resolution tendencies of #4-5 and b9-1 - it’s really a matter of the player hearing the gravity of the dissonance and then deciding what to do with that.

Amazing comment! Thanks!

 

[shwashwa]

ive heard other pat interviews where he stresses thinking of arpeggios instead of scales. he came right out and said that most of the stuff he plays is arpeggios, not thinking in scales, but in chords and chord superimpositions

 

[smeet]

I come from the school of using chords rather than scales. Chord-scales are a short cut that the old school jazz players did not use. Based off the melody, or based off the chord tones and filling in approach tones based on your ear, is what gives the player the best opportunity to clearly sound out the underlying harmony. A purely chord-scale approach doesn’t always differentiate between (for instance) the chords in a II V I. Jazz comes from harmony, not scales.

 

[Jason Hollar]

Invalid Link Removed

Are you guys hip to the Cool Toddcast? This was a great episode.

 

[IamGroot]

A scale has 7 notes - that leaves 5 left over out of 12. The scale thing breaks down when you start to hear how each note can fit. If someone says a Lydian scale works over a GMaj7, what that means is that a #4 can fit in. The 4 remaining notes can be brought into context as well.
Also, Metheny is really into Ornette Coleman, which means melody is primary. He also has sort of a "radical consonance" thing happening, meaning he may be maintaining consonant harmonies without staying "in key".
I would describe him as being consonant without being "inside" as such.

I will be nitpicky for a second. A heptatonic scale has 7 notes. You can do interesting stuff with scales with 5,6,8 or more notes, but 7 is the most important number as it fits nicely into our octave concept - i.e. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,.

Personally for me, I try to think of every 7 note scale as a permutation of the Major scale modes, where possible. There are a few exceptions like the Lydian Augmented but the Melodic Minor is just the Major b3 and the "Acoustic" is the Lydian Dominant. A scale is like the brush stroke of an artist. If I am playing bass for a dull blues jam, I will occasionally slip in an altered scale and then go back to the routine before anybody catches on.

I do reasearch the possibilities (see below), but its just a resource. Coltrane was into this with practicing out of the scale thesaurus, looking for new ideas. I am pretty sure Metheney has been down this road as well.

LIST OF MORE COMMONLY USED HEPTATONIC SCALES

There are over 740 Heptatonic scales, but many are not "appealing".
Capitalized scale is family name; subsequent scales are modes in ascending order.

First field is binary equivalent.
Second field is chord name. I generally use Ian Ring's naming convention, except for Melodic Minor modes.

Sorry this is messy. Talkbass doesnt support formatting.

2741 MAJOR 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
1709 Dorian 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
1451 Phrygian 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
2773 Lydian 1 2 3 b5 5 6 7
1717 Mixolydian 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
1453 Aeolian 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
1387 Locrian 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7
2733 MELODIC MINOR 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7
1707 Dorian Flat 2 1 b2 b3 4 5 6 b7
2901 Lydian Augmented 1 2 3 b5 b6 6 7
1749 Lydian Dominant 1 2 3 b5 5 6 b7
1461 Mixolydian b6 1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7
1389 Aeolian b5 1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7
1371 Superlocrian 1 b2 b3 3 b5 b6 b7
2477 HARMONIC MINOR 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7
1643 Locrian Natural 6 1 b2 b3 4 b5 6 b7
2869 Major Augmented 1 2 3 4 b6 6 7
1741 Lydian Diminished 1 2 b3 b5 5 6 b7
1459 Phrygian Dominant 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7
2777 Aeolian Harmonic 1 b3 3 b5 5 6 7
859 Ultralocrian 1 b2 b3 3 b5 b6 6
2483 DOUBLE HARMONIC 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 7
3289 Lydian Sharp 2 Sharp 6 1 b3 3 b5 5 b7 7
923 Ultraphrygian 1 b2 b3 3 5 b6 6
2509 Double Harmonic Minor 1 2 b3 b5 5 b6 7
1651 Asian 1 b2 3 4 b5 6 b7
2873 Ionian Augmented Sharp 2 1 b3 3 4 b6 6 7
871 Hungarian Romani Minor 4th Mode 1 b2 2 4 b5 b6 6
2475 NEAPOLITAN MINOR 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 7
3285 Mela Citrambari 1 2 3 b5 5 b7 7
1845 Lagian 1 2 3 4 b6 6 b7
1485 Minor Romani 1 2 b3 b5 5 b6 b7
1395 Locrian Dominant 1 b2 3 4 b5 b6 b7
2745 Mela Sulini 1 b3 3 4 5 6 7
855 Porian 1 b2 2 3 b5 b6 6
1273 HEPTATONIC BLUES 1 #2 3 4 b5 5 b7
671 Stycrian 1 b2 2 b3 3 5 6
2383 Katorian 1 b2 2 b3 b5 b6 7
3239 Mela Tanarupi 1 b2 2 4 5 b7 7
3667 Kaptian 1 b2 3 b5 6 b7 7
3881 Morian 1 b3 4 b6 6 b7 7
997 Rycrian 1 2 4 b5 5 b6 6
1493 LYDIAN MINOR 1 2 3 #4 5 b6 b7
1397 Major Locrian 1 2 3 4 b5 b6 b7
1373 Storian 1 2 b3 3 b5 b6 b7
1367 Leading Whole-Tone Inverse 1 b2 2 3 b5 b6 b7
2731 Neapolitan Major 1 b2 b3 4 5 6 7
3413 Leading Whole-tone 1 2 3 b5 b6 b7 7
1877 Aeroptian 1 2 3 b5 b6 6 b7
1753 HUNGARIAN MAJOR 1 #2 3 #4 5 6 b7
731 Alternating Heptamode 1 b2 b3 3 b5 5 6
2413 Harmonic Minor Flat 5 1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 7
1627 Hungarian Major 4th Mode 1 b2 b3 3 b5 6 b7
2861 Hungarian Major 5th Mode 1 2 b3 4 b6 6 7
1739 Mela Sadvidhamargini 1 b2 b3 b5 5 6 b7
2917 Nohkan Flute Scale 1 2 4 b5 b6 6 7
2509 DOUBLE HARMONIC MINOR 1 2 b3 #4 5 b6 7
1651 Asian 1 b2 3 4 b5 6 b7
2873 Ionian Augmented Sharp 2 1 b3 3 4 b6 6 7
871 Hungarian Romani Minor 4th Mode 1 b2 2 4 b5 b6 6
2483 Double Harmonic 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 7
3289 Lydian Sharp 2 Sharp 6 1 b3 3 b5 5 b7 7
923 Ultraphrygian 1 b2 b3 3 5 b6 6
2731 NEAPOLITAN MAJOR 1 b2 b3 4 5 6 7
3413 Leading Whole-tone 1 2 3 b5 b6 b7 7
1877 Aeroptian 1 2 3 b5 b6 6 b7
1493 Lydian Minor 1 2 3 b5 5 b6 b7
1397 Major Locrian 1 2 3 4 b5 b6 b7
1373 Storian 1 2 b3 3 b5 b6 b7
1367 Leading Whole-Tone Inverse 1 b2 2 3 b5 b6 b7

 

[IamGroot]

One more thought for 7 note scales. If you use only half and whole steps to construct a scale it will have exactly 2 half steps and 5 whole steps.

And a pentatonic scale cannot be constructed out of only half and whole steps - which is why the 2 x 1 .5 steps are used.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

…
Personally for me, I try to think of every 7 note scale as a permutation of the Major scale modes, where possible.

…

I generally use Ian Ring's naming convention, except for Melodic Minor modes.

Permutation is not the correct term because with a permutation you only rearrange the elements in a different order.
You mean alteration, so you change some notes from a scale.
You can easily remember this since the altered scale is named after a C major scale where all notes except the root are (down-) altered by a flat.

But the hint to Ian Rings work is interesting for me. (Just search for „Ian Rings scales“.) Thanks for that.
My approach is a bit different, but not too far from his. And I got a new source for scale names.[/QUOTE]

 

[DoubleMIDI]

One more thought for 7 note scales. If you use only half and whole steps to construct a scale it will have exactly 2 half steps and 5 whole steps.

And a pentatonic scale cannot be constructed out of only half and whole steps - which is why the 2 x 1 .5 steps are used.

That‘s closer to my approach.
Eliminate consecutive halftone steps and allow an augmented second when surrounded by halftone steps only and we have the seven tone scales.

I don’t come from a just combinatoric approach (but I know my basic math) but try to start from existing music and analyze the structure to find something new (at least for some) and find classes that are more and more distant from the common ones.

Scales with many notes are seldom used with equal importance of every note at the same time, often only some of them are played at the same time and changed later, so they are a mix of several scales or have the option to be changing between several ones. The more change the less clear and more unordered the scales become. The extreme is a stochastically equal distributed use of notes of the chromatic scale. This is complete chaos unless you calm the use of tempered notes a certain kind of order.

 

[lurk]

In the CoolToddcast episode referenced a few posts back, Pat says his goal is to be able to play any of the 12 notes on any chord. I'm not a huge fan of his music, but it's a wonderful and inspiring interview. It's episode 45.

 

[damonsmith]

To be clear, I am saying we need to understand what all (7 + 5) 12 notes do in any given setting and chose the the notes we need individually as needed. Scales are great for working on intonation and getting an overview of a key center, I don't think they are best for making music.
The further point that I am making is that when a case is made for a scale "working" over any chord it generally comes down to a single different note - so we should just chose the notes we need.
The example I gave is if someone made a case for a Lydian scale working over a Major 7 all they are really saying is a #4 can work. So, it is just best to know what all 12 notes do against any given chord.

I will be nitpicky for a second. A heptatonic scale has 7 notes. You can do interesting stuff with scales with 5,6,8 or more notes, but 7 is the most important number as it fits nicely into our octave concept - i.e. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,.

Personally for me, I try to think of every 7 note scale as a permutation of the Major scale modes, where possible. There are a few exceptions like the Lydian Augmented but the Melodic Minor is just the Major b3 and the "Acoustic" is the Lydian Dominant. A scale is like the brush stroke of an artist. If I am playing bass for a dull blues jam, I will occasionally slip in an altered scale and then go back to the routine before anybody catches on.

I do reasearch the possibilities (see below), but its just a resource. Coltrane was into this with practicing out of the scale thesaurus, looking for new ideas. I am pretty sure Metheney has been down this road as well.

LIST OF MORE COMMONLY USED HEPTATONIC SCALES

There are over 740 Heptatonic scales, but many are not "appealing".
Capitalized scale is family name; subsequent scales are modes in ascending order.

First field is binary equivalent.
Second field is chord name. I generally use Ian Ring's naming convention, except for Melodic Minor modes.

Sorry this is messy. Talkbass doesnt support formatting.

2741 MAJOR 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
1709 Dorian 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
1451 Phrygian 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
2773 Lydian 1 2 3 b5 5 6 7
1717 Mixolydian 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
1453 Aeolian 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
1387 Locrian 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7
2733 MELODIC MINOR 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7
1707 Dorian Flat 2 1 b2 b3 4 5 6 b7
2901 Lydian Augmented 1 2 3 b5 b6 6 7
1749 Lydian Dominant 1 2 3 b5 5 6 b7
1461 Mixolydian b6 1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7
1389 Aeolian b5 1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7
1371 Superlocrian 1 b2 b3 3 b5 b6 b7
2477 HARMONIC MINOR 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7
1643 Locrian Natural 6 1 b2 b3 4 b5 6 b7
2869 Major Augmented 1 2 3 4 b6 6 7
1741 Lydian Diminished 1 2 b3 b5 5 6 b7
1459 Phrygian Dominant 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7
2777 Aeolian Harmonic 1 b3 3 b5 5 6 7
859 Ultralocrian 1 b2 b3 3 b5 b6 6
2483 DOUBLE HARMONIC 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 7
3289 Lydian Sharp 2 Sharp 6 1 b3 3 b5 5 b7 7
923 Ultraphrygian 1 b2 b3 3 5 b6 6
2509 Double Harmonic Minor 1 2 b3 b5 5 b6 7
1651 Asian 1 b2 3 4 b5 6 b7
2873 Ionian Augmented Sharp 2 1 b3 3 4 b6 6 7
871 Hungarian Romani Minor 4th Mode 1 b2 2 4 b5 b6 6
2475 NEAPOLITAN MINOR 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 7
3285 Mela Citrambari 1 2 3 b5 5 b7 7
1845 Lagian 1 2 3 4 b6 6 b7
1485 Minor Romani 1 2 b3 b5 5 b6 b7
1395 Locrian Dominant 1 b2 3 4 b5 b6 b7
2745 Mela Sulini 1 b3 3 4 5 6 7
855 Porian 1 b2 2 3 b5 b6 6
1273 HEPTATONIC BLUES 1 #2 3 4 b5 5 b7
671 Stycrian 1 b2 2 b3 3 5 6
2383 Katorian 1 b2 2 b3 b5 b6 7
3239 Mela Tanarupi 1 b2 2 4 5 b7 7
3667 Kaptian 1 b2 3 b5 6 b7 7
3881 Morian 1 b3 4 b6 6 b7 7
997 Rycrian 1 2 4 b5 5 b6 6
1493 LYDIAN MINOR 1 2 3 #4 5 b6 b7
1397 Major Locrian 1 2 3 4 b5 b6 b7
1373 Storian 1 2 b3 3 b5 b6 b7
1367 Leading Whole-Tone Inverse 1 b2 2 3 b5 b6 b7
2731 Neapolitan Major 1 b2 b3 4 5 6 7
3413 Leading Whole-tone 1 2 3 b5 b6 b7 7
1877 Aeroptian 1 2 3 b5 b6 6 b7
1753 HUNGARIAN MAJOR 1 #2 3 #4 5 6 b7
731 Alternating Heptamode 1 b2 b3 3 b5 5 6
2413 Harmonic Minor Flat 5 1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 7
1627 Hungarian Major 4th Mode 1 b2 b3 3 b5 6 b7
2861 Hungarian Major 5th Mode 1 2 b3 4 b6 6 7
1739 Mela Sadvidhamargini 1 b2 b3 b5 5 6 b7
2917 Nohkan Flute Scale 1 2 4 b5 b6 6 7
2509 DOUBLE HARMONIC MINOR 1 2 b3 #4 5 b6 7
1651 Asian 1 b2 3 4 b5 6 b7
2873 Ionian Augmented Sharp 2 1 b3 3 4 b6 6 7
871 Hungarian Romani Minor 4th Mode 1 b2 2 4 b5 b6 6
2483 Double Harmonic 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 7
3289 Lydian Sharp 2 Sharp 6 1 b3 3 b5 5 b7 7
923 Ultraphrygian 1 b2 b3 3 5 b6 6
2731 NEAPOLITAN MAJOR 1 b2 b3 4 5 6 7
3413 Leading Whole-tone 1 2 3 b5 b6 b7 7
1877 Aeroptian 1 2 3 b5 b6 6 b7
1493 Lydian Minor 1 2 3 b5 5 b6 b7
1397 Major Locrian 1 2 3 4 b5 b6 b7
1373 Storian 1 2 b3 3 b5 b6 b7
1367 Leading Whole-Tone Inverse 1 b2 2 3 b5 b6 b7

 

[damonsmith]

In the CoolToddcast episode referenced a few posts back, Pat says his goal is to be able to play any of the 12 notes on any chord. I'm not a huge fan of his music, but it's a wonderful and inspiring interview. It's episode 45.

Nice that we made these posts at the same time! I feel the same way, I like Bright Size Life and some Gary Burton albums, but his music is generally not for me, although his ideas are. I have a ton of respect for him and his interviews are pretty much always inspiring.

 

[IamGroot]

Permutation is not the correct term because with a permutation you only rearrange the elements in a different order.
You mean alteration, so you change some notes from a scale.
You can easily remember this since the altered scale is named after a C major scale where all notes except the root are (down-) altered by a flat.

But the hint to Ian Rings work is interesting for me. (Just search for „Ian Rings scales“.) Thanks for that.
My approach is a bit different, but not too far from his. And I got a new source for scale names.

[/QUOTE]

I discovered Ian Ring,s posts when I went to answer some combinatoric questions about scales for a lunch time presentation. His list of scale names was very helpful. I work with the binary form, and then do a look up for names as a nicety. Musically, its good to scan whats out there for ideas.

From my perspective, the correct word is "Rotation". All modes are rotations on a parent scale. The number of possible rotations equals the number of elements of the scale. But I really dont care what you call it, as long as you get the right answer.

I am afraid the heads of some TBers will explode if I say that scales are a linear transformation of an exponential phenomena.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I discovered Ian Ring,s posts when I went to answer some combinatoric questions about scales for a lunch time presentation. His list of scale names was very helpful. I work with the binary form, and then do a look up for names as a nicety. Musically, its good to scan whats out there for ideas.

From my perspective, the correct word is "Rotation". All modes are rotations on a parent scale. The number of possible rotations equals the number of elements of the scale. But I really dont care what you call it, as long as you get the right answer.

I am afraid the heads of some TBers will explode if I say that scales are a linear transformation of an exponential phenomena.

So you meant something different than I thought. Rotation is closer (I visualize a scale interval structure by a ring where the root note is on top), but permutation is not wrong, only a bit general.

But I thought you see scales as deviations from a mode of major, like lydian b7 for the fourth mode of melodic minor. There are some scales that only need one modifier from a mode of major, but there are enough which need two or more and the naming often is not unique (lydian b7 = mixolydian #4).

I see a scale as a set of notes with a single special one defined as the root note.
It’s more like what you can choose to make the scale clear, not a pitch order that may get played up and down too often. For musical notation of a scale the pitch order may be helpful, but it can mislead playing the notes one after the other up and down mainly.
Of course other notes can be used in melodic playing too that are not in the scale pitch set, but they need to have a connection to a pitch set note like approaching or passing note.

For chords you also select notes from the pitch set, being it a stack of thirds from the root or any other combination. For unusual chords, the root note in the bass helps finding the root quickly, but sometimes needs some help from a fifth (all three versions possible).
Not every combination of scale notes for a chord (specially in a certain progression) makes sense or defines the scale well, but more freedom needs more decisions what to use and why.

 

[CryingBass]

Schroom Scales. Organic, complex, and I should stop here.

You guys are crazy smart btw.

 

[IamGroot]

So you meant something different than I thought. Rotation is closer (I visualize a scale interval structure by a ring where the root note is on top), but permutation is not wrong, only a bit general.

But I thought you see scales as deviations from a mode of major, like lydian b7 for the fourth mode of melodic minor. There are some scales that only need one modifier from a mode of major, but there are enough which need two or more and the naming often is not unique (lydian b7 = mixolydian #4).

I see a scale as a set of notes with a single special one defined as the root note.
It’s more like what you can choose to make the scale clear, not a pitch order that may get played up and down too often. For musical notation of a scale the pitch order may be helpful, but it can mislead playing the notes one after the other up and down mainly.
Of course other notes can be used in melodic playing too that are not in the scale pitch set, but they need to have a connection to a pitch set note like approaching or passing note.

For chords you also select notes from the pitch set, being it a stack of thirds from the root or any other combination. For unusual chords, the root note in the bass helps finding the root quickly, but sometimes needs some help from a fifth (all three versions possible).
Not every combination of scale notes for a chord (specially in a certain progression) makes sense or defines the scale well, but more freedom needs more decisions what to use and why.

Thank you for your thoughts and kind words. I see the scale as a bracelet, just like you do.

I first think about the "correct" scale and then see what I can interject (for a fill as an example) that spices up the original scale or the next "correct " chord. If its a solo, playing outside requires a different thought process.

 

[devnulljp]

I respect Pat for a number of reasons:

You didn't mention the stripy shirt

 

[IamGroot]

You didn't mention the stripy shirt

He quit wearing those after Russia invaded the Ukraine.