"deep" bass cabinet

[spode master]

Cerwin Vega Earthquake sub will still hold up well against most modern subs, It is quite compact and can be got for very little money.
Or bigger see if you can find an old Acoustic 301 1 X 18 Cerwin Vega loaded folded horn. Or the Acoustic 408 4 X 15 cab.
They will certainly wobble your giblets.

Hardly considered a Subwoofer. Horn paths and mouth are simply too small, for a true subwoofer.

There is a reason, a LAB Sub or a Bass Tech 7 has a 10.5' Horn path length, and are ideally used in Groups of 4 for a close to optimal horn mouth area ~4' tall 8' wide half space. They also weigh about 250lbs per unit.

Old Cerwin or new Cerwin Vegas do not hold up against modern horn subs, they are at best mid bass horns, at worse old-think outdated designs. But they do have an awful lot of Punch because, punch is mostly in the Midbass.

If its a sound you dig then go for it but don't confuse it for sub bass.

 

[Bassmec]

Hardly considered a Subwoofer. Horn paths and mouth are simply too small, for a true subwoofer.

There is a reason, a LAB Sub or a Bass Tech 7 has a 10.5' Horn path length, and are ideally used in Groups of 4 for a close to optimal horn mouth area ~4' tall 8' wide half space. They also weigh about 250lbs per unit.

Old Cerwin or new Cerwin Vegas do not hold up against modern horn subs, they are at best mid bass horns, at worse old-think outdated designs. But they do have an awful lot of Punch because, punch is mostly in the Midbass.

If its a sound you dig then go for it but don't confuse it for sub bass.

We currently have the british national sound off record for an ICE sub boot install for Orion in car audio at 30 hz . So I know a bit about sub bass systems. but he wants to play more than 1 note cos he has three oscillators and an LFO running. The Orion HCCA subs would be utter **** with a bass station or an oscar or a nord lead synth making the sort of sounds I think he wants.
Your mistake is to misunderstand what range of frequencies are contained in harmonics of a great synth bass sound and how important or otherwise the fundamental of those notes are in comparison with a balanced efficient range of harmonics from 45 to say 350 hz if he where trying to amplify an 808 kick drum sample which is just about a pure sine wave (as is a down tuned ocarina and some other flute samples)
you might have a point but an intelligent programmer tunes his 808
to about 53-60 hz in order to maintain efficiency and to make his records work on some domestic audio systems to an extent.
I keep seeing the latest thing since sliced bread fried by the thousands of watts it needs to operate at frequencies nobody appeared to be aware of at the time.
Why not use what worked for Jaco back in the 70's,
with only 300 odd watts it was faffing loud in the BAND of frequencies our customer wants to produce. Also cost wise, I just got given another fairly smart acoustic 301 free of charge, all I have to do is re-cone the Vega and its good for another 30 odd years.
You see he doesn't want a pure sub, he in fact wants a powerful efficient bassy cab of the sort of tonality and range of a traditional Reggae 3 way dance hall sounds system bass end, 18" Scoop bins normally.
Thats not a pure sub.
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I see the old cerwin still gets a mention in history for all this new ultra hi cost 28 hz stuff.

 

[Calaverasgrande]

Which one is "ELF"? What category is it under?

Sorry, I guess Bagend is calling it Infra now?
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is one example.
Another cool cab for synths is the community CSX57.
Its a dual 15" with a mid driver and tweet. It has that community light bulb protection circuit that kind of puts a bump in the bass around 40-80hz or so. They are heavy at 115 lbs or so.
But they are pretty decent for a one box, no sub solution. Albeit with piezo tweets and a pretty ugly dispersion.

I also gotta agree that there really isnt anything under 30 hz that you need.
40-80hz is the shizz. Thats why those CV earthquakes (or the quake jr's which is what most of you guys are actually talking about) work so well. They just hurl that 80hz kick drum snap across the room.

 

[spode master]

We currently have the british national sound off record for an ICE sub boot install for Orion in car audio at 30 hz . So I know a bit about sub bass systems. but he wants to play more than 1 note cos he has three oscillators and an LFO running. The Orion HCCA subs would be utter **** with a bass station or an oscar or a nord lead synth making the sort of sounds I think he wants.
Your mistake is to misunderstand what range of frequencies are contained in harmonics of a great synth bass sound and how important or otherwise the fundamental of those notes are in comparison with a balanced efficient range of harmonics from 45 to say 350 hz if he where trying to amplify an 808 kick drum sample which is just about a pure sine wave (as is a down tuned ocarina and some other flute samples)
you might have a point but an intelligent programmer tunes his 808
to about 53-60 hz in order to maintain efficiency and to make his records work on some domestic audio systems to an extent.
I keep seeing the latest thing since sliced bread fried by the thousands of watts it needs to operate at frequencies nobody appeared to be aware of at the time.
Why not use what worked for Jaco back in the 70's,
with only 300 odd watts it was faffing loud in the BAND of frequencies our customer wants to produce. Also cost wise, I just got given another fairly smart acoustic 301 free of charge, all I have to do is re-cone the Vega and its good for another 30 odd years.
You see he doesn't want a pure sub, he in fact wants a powerful efficient bassy cab of the sort of tonality and range of a traditional Reggae 3 way dance hall sounds system bass end, 18" Scoop bins normally.
Thats not a pure sub.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
I see the old cerwin still gets a mention in history for all this new ultra hi cost 28 hz stuff.

I'm not sure why I was being quoted for this one, but I think the OP wants a Sub for a keyboard rig, although He is simply not going to find a wide band sub-woofer, since there is no such thing. (My PA is currently a 5 Way)

Sub/Bass/Mid/upper-mid/super-tweet
30Hz-80Hz/80-300Hz/300-1.2kHz/1.2kHz-8kHz/8kHz-21kHz

Good Stuff.

Car subwoofers and Cab gain, your playing a totally different sport.

 

[Bassmec]

I'm not sure why I was being quoted for this one, but I think the OP wants a Sub for a keyboard rig, although He is simply not going to find a wide band sub-woofer, since there is no such thing. (My PA is currently a 5 Way)

Sub/Bass/Mid/upper-mid/super-tweet
30Hz-80Hz/80-300Hz/300-1.2kHz/1.2kHz-8kHz/8kHz-21kHz

Good Stuff.

Car subwoofers and Cab gain, your playing a totally different sport.

And so are specialized bass guitar/bass synth amplification and Public Address systems. Our customer wants it all in one, phat and heavy and not too fizzy.
He might want to go and buy a DSC, some more power amps and a couple of 12" units and some mid horns with it if he decides to double guitar, piccolo flute and triangle samples in the future, then it might look a bit like this:
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But thats more than he needs right now!.
Here are a couple of the other sports events I have been known to compete in:
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[robgrow]

This is a no-brainer. Buy the Acme Low B2 for sale in the TB classified ads that bassdrummer mentioned. http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=519190 It will give you all the deep bass you want in your room. Very compact as well. For $360 it's a steal.

 

[fredj]

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[billfitzmaurice]

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A good example of 'specmanship'. The claimed sensitivity is 108dB, but it only attains that sensitivity at 90Hz. The claimed -10dB frequency is 25Hz, but if that was the case sensitivity at 25 Hz should be 98dB, when it's actually 80dB. Apparently whomever wrote the ad copy on the first page of the PDF spec sheets didn't take a look at the SPL chart on the second page.

 

[Calaverasgrande]

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thats my kind of sporting event!

 

[spode master]

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Really wow, thats a show no shame CV copy by Peavey!?

Looks like its a 40Hz Horn that may benefit from Using in groups of 4 or more to help flatten the response, but its certainly not 30Hz Horn.

This is a 30Hz Horn

4 Cabs = 1 1/2 space bass horn (I think 6 is really optimal)

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Really wow, thats a show no shame CV copy by Peavey!?

That design was not original to CV either. It's a copy of a University folded horn from the 1950s, when 40 Hz was considered deep bass, 25 watts was a big amp and 1mm xmax drivers was the rule. It's been obsolete since 200 watt amplifiers and 4mm xmax drivers came on the scene.

 

[VicDamone]

Flat down to 23Hz for $1000. and the ability to control its gain.

Interesting challenge. Even more interesting will be a credible solution.

 

[spode master]

That design was not original to CV either. It's a copy of a University folded horn from the 1950s, when 40 Hz was considered deep bass, 25 watts was a big amp and 1mm xmax drivers was the rule. It's been obsolete since 200 watt amplifiers and 4mm xmax drivers came on the scene.

Wow really CV has been dry humping that design for that long .

I really like some of Community's gear, I especially like their Fiberglass 80Hz Horn they use for Colosseum installs.

I think its pretty Funny that companies like CV and Peavey are still Using that old design, without much apparent improvement, or innovation.

"The C-Series delivers more bass per square inch than other subwoofer designs and achieves new levels of performance. A new curved horn mouth bracing delivers smoother frequency response, a rugged new die cast aluminum door improves heat dissipation, and a redesigned, deeper pole cup with added reinforcement for improved top speaker stability. Integrated wheels plus a new Cerwin-Vega! ergonomic handle make for easier transportability."

I like how they don't post any graphs, or mention that using groups of 4 or more is ideal. Or anything about boundary loading.

But I guess thats not important if your main clients are DJ's.

One of my favorite things I've heard from a DJ.

"You aren't getting all of the sound out of the Amp unless you're running it into the Red."

Awsome!

 

[spode master]

Flat down to 23Hz for $1000. and the ability to control its gain.

Interesting challenge. Even more interesting will be a credible solution.

I built a DIY 21Hz tapped Horn, with a 300$ driver and about 20$ worth of Particle Board. Just need to support gear.

It works pretty good but needs more bracing.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

"The C-Series delivers more bass per square inch than other subwoofer designs and achieves new levels of performance.!

There are charts floating around for C-Vs. They're pretty pitiful.

 

[Mr. Ray]

I have owned a vintage Acoustic 18 reflex and a SUNN 18 and I have played a Taurus Moog thru them. You will be heard miles down the road with either cab.

 

[robgrow]

Although I'm sure there are those who will disagree with me, a horn-loaded LF speaker is just not needed in a small room such as the OP described. A direct radiator such an Acme cab, while not as efficient as a horn, can effectively reproduce the lowest fundamentals of the Taurus pedals. Also many commercially available bass horns have a relatively high cutoff frequency and can't reproduce the lowest fundamentals.

 

[spode master]

Although I'm sure there are those who will disagree with me, a horn-loaded LF speaker is just not needed in a small room such as the OP described. A direct radiator such an Acme cab, while not as efficient as a horn, can effectively reproduce the lowest fundamentals of the Taurus pedals. Also many commercially available bass horns have a relatively high cutoff frequency and can't reproduce the lowest fundamentals.

Yes it is interesting to not that in small environments dirrect radiators appear louder and are louder up close, but appear to have an exponential roll off the further back one gets from them, where the horn subwoofers appear quieter up close, but louder further back.

From what I understand this has something to do with the energy radiating from a larger area in the horns.

 

[bassbrock]

Although I'm sure there are those who will disagree with me, a horn-loaded LF speaker is just not needed in a small room such as the OP described.

-1 - I'm one who disagrees.

Horns are useful in all situations, large and small, indoors and out. For small rooms you simply use smaller horns. For example, the original poster could build a Bill Fitzmaurice Autotuba (designed for cars and other small areas) and when properly placed (corner loaded for example) would fill his small practice room with all the bass he could want. And for around $200 or less.

There simply isn't a situation where a properly designed horn isn't appropriate in just about any situation. The unfortunate situation is that there simply isn't a commercially built, off the shelf, purchasable horn loaded speaker available at this time that is made with a properly designed horn. In this case, he would have to build it himself or pay a builder to build it for him.

Commercially available horns, like the Cerwin Vega mentioned earlier, are way out of date in their designs and are not true subwoofers. The horn path is too short and the cabinets are typically tuned to the mid-bass region. Bill Fitzmaurice cabs are properly designed and have proven themselves as appropriate for just about any situation if you are willing and able to build yourself. The process is very rewarding, and I'm glad to have participated (I've built two Tuba 24's). In fact, I'm getting ready to participate in an even larger build of 8 BFM DR200's, 8 BFM Tuba 24's and 8 BFM Wedgehorns for a PA system upgrade. All fully horn loaded designs. I'm a horn convert, so to speak. Once you go horn, you never go back.

That being said, as far as what the OP could buy off the shelf, the Acme Low B designs, direct radiating of course, are about as good as it gets. I also own five Acme Low B cabinets, and while I love them, I also hate them for some of their design flaws. Particularly the comb filtering issue and the lack of clarity once you get more than a few feet away, as is typical with the majority of direct radiating bass cabs.

 

[Calaverasgrande]

I love horn loaded stuff. My favorite cab to play out with is my GK horn loaded 4x12. It get much lower than any 4x12 has business of doing. It also weighs more than any other cabs I have ever owned. However horn loaded is not a panacea. For accuracy I prefer infinite baffle speakers. All the vented, horn loaded, slot loaded etc speakers have freqs they boom at and freqs they are sloppy at. Infinite baffle speakers are tighter, but not as loud, and require bigger boxes. I'm gonna look up some of those sub designs you talk about though. I also have some crazy ideas for a sub of my own.