"Developing Perfect Pitch"

[TyBo]

It can make for one heck of a parlor trick. The further adventures of Rick and Dylan Beato. At one point, Rick says, "So Dylan, tell people how much you use your perfect pitch." (shrug ...) "Barely." Do you even ever think of it when your listening to songs?" "No." "But, out of tune notes don't bother you, right?" "Nope."

 

[Patrice B]

It's not so much a question of degrees as it is specific cognitive abilities. Perfect pitch is essentially a cognitive deficit - a sign of some kind of mental inflexibility affecting the brain's development. That's why it can't be learned. Not by coincidence, it's significantly more prevalent among people on the autism spectrum than the population at large. One of the major hurdles of autism is overall mental inflexibility.

I'm on the spectrum, and have perfect pitch, but I don't have good recall of specific notes. My deficits in memory and executive functions make that pretty much impossible. I can, however, sing any song I know at exactly the right pitch, even if it doesn't match standard 440Hz tuning. Songs, and especially vocal parts, are one of the few things I remember effortlessly. I'm not sure that even rises to the level of parlor trick.

Perfect pitch makes playing, and especially singing when tuned half a step down very difficult. A bandmate once commented that I was the only singer he's ever heard who drifts high, instead of low, when I'm off key. That was me trying to resolve the difference between my ears and memory. I always had to watch him when I was singing harmonies. If Larry gave me the stink eye, I knew I was sharp again.

Fortunately I've always had excellent relative pitch. When I was taking cello lessons as a kid, the orchestra instructor sometimes commented on it while I was tuning. One time he even got out several tuning forks to test me against other instruments in the room. In a sense, good relative pitch is what helps me overcome my perfect pitch.

The little girl in my post in indeed in the Autistic Spectrum…

"Developing Perfect Pitch"

 

[Verticos]

It's a good parlor trick, but in all practicality, not all that useful.

I agree that the utility of perfect pitch is frequently overestimated. There are small instances where it's handy (it sure can make transcribing, charting, and playing along to tunes you don't know easier). But it's mostly fluff.

I haven't seen anyone saying absolute pitch can't be learned[...]

We have one right here ↓↓↓ but Patrice self-identifies as an absolute pitch... absolutist.

Well, for me at least, AP is the ability to identify immediately the pitch of a note (or even several notes in a chord) without errors. IMHO, a result of 90% a few months after for « the best » contender in the study is not AP for me.

i.e. It's lightning quick, or it's not perfect pitch. That is certainly a stance one can take if one chooses their own definitions, but that also doesn't mean that an individual's definition matches the consensus definition.

It seems to be that there are two kinds of absolute pitch perception in people

- Perceptual Transcoding
- Heightened Tonal Memory

I'll have to find the web links for that later on... I read those terms online a few years ago.

PT is the kind of AP that folks talk about being "born with it", or develop it as a baby.
HTM is the kind of AP that folks say they learn with musical practice.

Both are forms of absolute pitch, but seem to have different internal brain processes?

For musicians:
Absolute Pitch is about the notes themselves (pitch colour)
Relative pitch is about the spaces between the notes. (Relationship hearing)

Like everything there are gradations of ability. A person can have absolute pitch and not be as capable as Pierre Boulez with it. Some folks are better at some stuff. Normal. Being like Pierre Boulez (or Dylan Beato), isn't the starting point of AP + RP, it's pretty much the human limit ending point of AP + RP.

This is a magnificent description, I couldn't agree more. I wish more people felt this way so that we could discuss substance instead of semantics of how one defines perfect pitch.

It's not so much a question of degrees as it is specific cognitive abilities. Perfect pitch is essentially a cognitive deficit - a sign of some kind of mental inflexibility affecting the brain's development. That's why it can't be learned. Not by coincidence, it's significantly more prevalent among people on the autism spectrum than the population at large. One of the major hurdles of autism is overall mental inflexibility.

I'm on the spectrum, and have perfect pitch, but I don't have good recall of specific notes. My deficits in memory and executive functions make that pretty much impossible. I can, however, sing any song I know at exactly the right pitch, even if it doesn't match standard 440Hz tuning. Songs, and especially vocal parts, are one of the few things I remember effortlessly. I'm not sure that even rises to the level of parlor trick.

Perfect pitch makes playing, and especially singing when tuned half a step down very difficult. A bandmate once commented that I was the only singer he's ever heard who drifts high, instead of low, when I'm off key. That was me trying to resolve the difference between my ears and memory. I always had to watch him when I was singing harmonies. If Larry gave me the stink eye, I knew I was sharp again.

Fortunately I've always had excellent relative pitch. When I was taking cello lessons as a kid, the orchestra instructor sometimes commented on it while I was tuning. One time he even got out several tuning forks to test me against other instruments in the room. In a sense, good relative pitch is what helps me overcome my perfect pitch.

I've never heard of AP being described as a deficit, but your explanation makes sense and is fascinating. Also, I sympathize with the bit about perfect pitch leading to confusion when you're in an alternate tuning!

 

[Patrice B]

I agree that the utility of perfect pitch is frequently overestimated. There are small instances where it's handy (it sure can make transcribing, charting, and playing along to tunes you don't know easier). But it's mostly fluff.

We have one right here ↓↓↓ but Patrice self-identifies as an absolute pitch... absolutist.

i.e. It's lightning quick, or it's not perfect pitch. That is certainly a stance one can take if one chooses their own definitions, but that also doesn't mean that an individual's definition matches the consensus definition.

This is a magnificent description, I couldn't agree more. I wish more people felt this way so that we could discuss substance instead of semantics of how one defines perfect pitch.

I've never heard of AP being described as a deficit, but your explanation makes sense and is fascinating. Also, I sympathize with the bit about perfect pitch leading to confusion when you're in an alternate tuning!

Not necessarily lightning quick but, yes 100 percent perfect…
But, you're right, maybe I'm wrong

 

[LBS-bass]

I agree that the utility of perfect pitch is frequently overestimated. There are small instances where it's handy (it sure can make transcribing, charting, and playing along to tunes you don't know easier). But it's mostly fluff.

The one practical use I have found for it is easily identifying songs that can be put together in a group or medley by key.

Our LS has perfect pitch and we frequently will play a song only to have him say, hey, song X will go really well right there. Both songs are always in the same key, so we devise a transition between the first song and song X to create a more seamless live show.

That is as much utility as I've ever discovered for this.

 

[TyBo]

I agree that the utility of perfect pitch is frequently overestimated. There are small instances where it's handy (it sure can make transcribing, charting, and playing along to tunes you don't know easier). But it's mostly fluff.

We have one right here ↓↓↓ but Patrice self-identifies as an absolute pitch... absolutist.

i.e. It's lightning quick, or it's not perfect pitch. That is certainly a stance one can take if one chooses their own definitions, but that also doesn't mean that an individual's definition matches the consensus definition.

This is a magnificent description, I couldn't agree more. I wish more people felt this way so that we could discuss substance instead of semantics of how one defines perfect pitch.

I've never heard of AP being described as a deficit, but your explanation makes sense and is fascinating. Also, I sympathize with the bit about perfect pitch leading to confusion when you're in an alternate tuning!

I took Patrice's post to mean that the results of that study did not indicate that the adults in it had learned perfect (or ... absolute ) pitch. Which is different from saying that perfect pitch can't be learned - Beato's point in the initial video, for instance claims pretty defiitively that perfect pitch IS a learned thing ... it's just that it's learned very young, and basically subconsciously (like one's native language). He does in the later video here featuring his son, talk about degrees of perfect pitch - Dylan is clearly on the upper end of that scale. Wow, impressive ability.

Looking at it through the lens of longfinger's post, perhaps there are two different things that both (often) get lumped together under the single name "perfect pitch". One, "Perceptual Transcoding" is what Beato refers to as "perfect pitch", and does seem to be ... perfect, generally. The other, "Heightened Tonal Memory", is something that in Beato's description might not be classed as "perfect pitch" (i.e. may be less "perfect" and less instantaneous), but still can give results that are somewhat similar (Amy Nolte appears to have that heightened tonal memory, naming any note that's played on the keyboard ... but not unfailingly generating any note (vocally) independently of any reference point or instrument.

Maybe it is indeed then, in part, a matter of semantics ...

 

[Patrice B]

Well, probably a semantic thing @TyBo , you are right.

@Verticos :

Wikipedia definition:

« Absolute pitch (AP), often called perfect pitch, is a rare ability of a person to identify or re-create a given musical note without the benefit of a reference tone.[1][2] AP may be demonstrated using linguistic labeling ("naming" a note), associating mental imagery with the note, or sensorimotor responses. For example, an AP possessor can accurately reproduce a heard tone on a musical instrument without "hunting" for the correct pitch.[3][4]»

So, yes, no time or percentage mentioned, or number of notes… Then, yes, mine is « absolutist »…

 

[Verticos]

Not necessarily lightning quick but, yes 100 percent perfect…
But, you're right, maybe I'm wrong

I'm still sympathetic to your way of thinking about it - there's definitely an "upper echelon" of perfect pitch posessors. Those select few with extraordinary speed and accuracy who come much closer to perfect pitch as a superpower instead of a party trick.

I took Patrice's post to mean that the results of that study did not indicate that the adults in it had learned perfect (or ... absolute ) pitch. Which is different from saying that perfect pitch can't be learned - Beato's point in the initial video, for instance claims pretty defiitively that perfect pitch IS a learned thing ... it's just that it's learned very young, and basically subconsciously (like one's native language). He does in the later video here featuring his son, talk about degrees of perfect pitch - Dylan is clearly on the upper end of that scale. Wow, impressive ability.

Looking at it through the lens of longfinger's post, perhaps there are two different things that both (often) get lumped together under the single name "perfect pitch". One, "Perceptual Transcoding" is what Beato refers to as "perfect pitch", and does seem to be ... perfect, generally. The other, "Heightened Tonal Memory", is something that in Beato's description might not be classed as "perfect pitch" (i.e. may be less "perfect" and less instantaneous), but still can give results that are somewhat similar (Amy Nolan appears to have that heightened tonal memory, naming any note that's played on the keyboard ... but not unfailingly generating any note (vocally) independently of any reference point or instrument.

Maybe it is indeed then, in part, a matter of semantics ...

The point from your first paragraph is well taken.

I think longfinger's post might clarify why some insist that one's "perfect pitch" is merely "good relative pitch". It seems that there are distinct levels of ability that we can all agree on: @Patrice B's tonal savants, the Amy Nolans of the world like me and @Rich Fiscus who fit the criteria but lack the instantaneous facility, and then those who don't posess any of the criteria. What we decide to call those groups (and the shades between) is tough not to get hung up on. But nevertheless we do agree that the distinctions exist!

 

[Patrice B]

I'm still sympathetic to your way of thinking about it - there's definitely an "upper echelon" of perfect pitch posessors. Those select few with extraordinary speed and accuracy who come much closer to perfect pitch as a superpower instead of a party trick.

The point from your first paragraph is well taken.

I think longfinger's post might clarify why some insist that one's "perfect pitch" is merely "good relative pitch". It seems that there are distinct levels of ability that we can all agree on: @Patrice B's tonal savants, the Amy Nolans of the world like me and @Rich Fiscus who fit the criteria but lack the instantaneous facility, and then those who don't posess any of the criteria. What we decide to call those groups (and the shades between) is tough not to get hung up on. But nevertheless we do agree that the distinctions exist!

I don't possess any of the criteria's, I swear Not so bad relative pitch, enough for me…

Interesting and enlightening discussion however!

 

[Patrice B]

As a trivia:

Glen Gould was probably Asperger and had perfect pitch! Not to forget that I really like his piano work.

As a sidenote, I «hear » music in my head and learnt not so long ago that's not the case for everyone.
Also, my brain associate some tonalities or chords with colors immediately: G and Eb are Orange, A is blue, D is grey, E is red and F min. is black…

Music and brain is a weird thing… but wonderful!

 

[Patrice B]

Erm… Maybe too much acid, mushrooms and THC in my youth

 

[mongo2]

Perfect pitch...

 

[LBS-bass]

i.e. It's lightning quick, or it's not perfect pitch. That is certainly a stance one can take if one chooses their own definitions, but that also doesn't mean that an individual's definition matches the consensus definition.

I guess I don't understand this, because no one is born knowing that 440 hz has the label "A" so at some point there is a learning step that involves relating what is heard to what is labeled. And this ability to rattle off "it's A" is not instant until you have learned this.

So I can't quite concede that a person who simply doesn't yet have the labeling down to an instantaneous degree doesn't have the pitch recognition capability that's required to qualify for perfect pitch. They might not know it's an A, but they might, as an example, recognize that it's the first sung note in a particular song.

At that point it's just an undeveloped skill, but it is still an ability.

 

[TyBo]

I guess I don't understand this, because no one is born knowing that 440 hz has the label "A" so at some point there is a learning step that involves relating what is heard to what is labeled. And this ability to rattle off "it's A" is not instant until you have learned this.

So I can't quite concede that a person who simply doesn't yet have the labeling down to an instantaneous degree doesn't have the pitch recognition capability that's required to qualify for perfect pitch. They might not know it's an A, but they might, as an example, recognize that it's the first sung note in a particular song.

At that point it's just an undeveloped skill, but it is still an ability.

Yeah. We can look again at the example of Dylan Beato, who before having any knowledge of assigned notes, could instantly identify tones by his personal knowledge of them ( G was the "Superman" note from John Williams' score, another tone was the "Star Wars" note, and so on). Dad Rick quickly taught him the 12 tone scale, and then some basic chord theory a little later. So identifying the tone itself is it's own thing, the naming of the note is secondary. That's with the "perceptual transcoding" ability, specifically.

 

[TyBo]

As a trivia:

Glen Gould was probably Asperger and had perfect pitch! Not to forget that I really like his piano work.

As a sidenote, I «hear » music in my head and learnt not so long ago that's not the case for everyone.
Also, my brain associate some tonalities or chords with colors immediately: G and Eb are Orange, A is blue, D is grey, E is red and F min. is black…

Music and brain is a weird thing… but wonderful!

Interesting. I hear music in my head, for sure. When I was a kid, I remember hearing the Beatles' "Rain" in my head, almost like listening to the radio. My first memory of really noticing the thing. Maybe akin to visual eidetic memory in some way, idk. I was surprised to find out that not everyone has this, too.

 

[Bob_Ross]

the other side of the coin is that it drives you crazy, as essentially the whole world is out of pitch to these people.

An old friend/former bandmate/educated musician & composer I know has often made the pithy but accurate observation that "Perfect Pitch is an affliction"

 

[LBS-bass]

As a trivia:

Glen Gould was probably Asperger and had perfect pitch! Not to forget that I really like his piano work.

As a sidenote, I «hear » music in my head and learnt not so long ago that's not the case for everyone.
Also, my brain associate some tonalities or chords with colors immediately: G and Eb are Orange, A is blue, D is grey, E is red and F min. is black…

Music and brain is a weird thing… but wonderful!

I also hear music in my head and it was indeed a bit of a letdown to discover that I couldn't communicate with most musicians that way. I can't really understand anything about the way most people "do" music, which seems more structural than anything I can relate to. The down side of this "skill" if you can call it that is that when I'm trying to work on something, I frequently have to rewind the "head tape" and play the bits that come in before the part I want to "listen to" and this is not always easily done in a noisy rehearsal environment. Plus it looks funny when I tell everyone to shush, then stand there quietly through two bars that only I can hear before announcing "that's a major 7th chord you're looking for."

 

[Patrice B]

I also hear music in my head and it was indeed a bit of a letdown to discover that I couldn't communicate with most musicians that way. I can't really understand anything about the way most people "do" music, which seems more structural than anything I can relate to. The down side of this "skill" if you can call it that is that when I'm trying to work on something, I frequently have to rewind the "head tape" and play the bits that come in before the part I want to "listen to" and this is not always easily done in a noisy rehearsal environment. Plus it looks funny when I tell everyone to shush, then stand there quietly through two bars that only I can hear before announcing "that's a major 7th chord you're looking for."

I'm, me too, more feeling than structurate and I feel the same about noisy environment, particularly trying to sing a tune when there is other music playing. I mean, another song or TV or whatever…

 

[Patrice B]

Interesting. I hear music in my head, for sure. When I was a kid, I remember hearing the Beatles' "Rain" in my head, almost like listening to the radio. My first memory of really noticing the thing. Maybe akin to visual eidetic memory in some way….

Probably related, yes.

 

[pepj]

Good ears, great ears and perfect pitch can be wholly different, to my thinking.

Perfect pitch to me is what Gordon Mote can do.
He is a blind session piano player in Nashville.
Check out Bukovacs channel where he cameos Gordon ...incredible and no I do not think you can learn that.
I have come across hundreds of musicians and I can't recall one with perfect pitch like that.
If you could learn it easily, more would.

Relative pitch is fine... and anyone with pretty good ears can develop that. imv