DI Always Dissapoints

[fishdude101101]

This is a very good starting point, and it's really what you can generally control as pro sound provider. But if the acoustics are bad enough, it generally trumps many of the benefits of a great sound system. The proper remedy is acoustic design and treatment.


A caveat about acoustic design and treatment. The ideal acoustics vary depending upon the type of ensemble. A small acoustic chamber group can sound fabulous in an extremely live room. A larger acoustic ensemble is likely to sound better in a less reverberant space. Amplified music tends to work better in spaces where especially the low frequencies are well damped. Here's an article if you are interested: ICA2016-0095.pdf

Maybe, maybe not. But if you are regularly being asked not to use a preamp you are at least playing the same stages as him.

How is that relevant? I've never had a single foh engineer reject or complain about a preamp signal I've sent them.

 

[fishdude101101]

And to be honest, there's a ton of musicians (not just bass) + bands out there that have always played with backline + pole speakers (maybe not even subs) thinking they know what sounds great (it might on the back patio at the bar/grill) and believe a 60kw PA (and the headset mics they insist on using on a windy day) should sound just the same to them up on stage.
They don't know what 30kw of sub in a power-alley config sounds like! IOW - they ain't as experienced as they claim. Pluck a low-B and the whole stage will vibrate, they ain't used to that!
I have done lots of local festival gigs [pre-COVID] where there are some darn "good" pro-level headliners (both regional and national - often fly-in's w/ riders), but most have had local bands looking for that "fame and fortune" break! Many arrive w/ attitude, and I can now spot then a mile away!
It's no different than being able to tell if someone has a good voice and can sing! Takes mins!
If I get "attitude" from one, OK. I'll deal with it!
All of them? Then all bets are off!

Also not that guy either. I'm spoiled. Never played a gig in my life

And to be honest, there's a ton of musicians (not just bass) + bands out there that have always played with backline + pole speakers (maybe not even subs) thinking they know what sounds great (it might on the back patio at the bar/grill) and believe a 60kw PA (and the headset mics they insist on using on a windy day) should sound just the same to them up on stage.
They don't know what 30kw of sub in a power-alley config sounds like! IOW - they ain't as experienced as they claim. Pluck a low-B and the whole stage will vibrate, they ain't used to that!
I have done lots of local festival gigs [pre-COVID] where there are some darn "good" pro-level headliners (both regional and national - often fly-in's w/ riders), but most have had local bands looking for that "fame and fortune" break! Many arrive w/ attitude, and I can now spot then a mile away!
It's no different than being able to tell if someone has a good voice and can sing! Takes mins!
If I get "attitude" from one, OK. I'll deal with it!
All of them? Then all bets are off!

I'm not that guy either despite my posts in this thread.

I'm spoiled. Never played a gig without PA support. Never had to mix on a PA on stick. First gig I ever mixed on my own was in front of about 800-1000 people. No lie, I was just a stage hand and the FOH guy got hurt rigging lights and it was me or nobody.

 

[fishdude101101]

This is a very good starting point, and it's really what you can generally control as pro sound provider. But if the acoustics are bad enough, it generally trumps many of the benefits of a great sound system. The proper remedy is acoustic design and treatment.


A caveat about acoustic design and treatment. The ideal acoustics vary depending upon the type of ensemble. A small acoustic chamber group can sound fabulous in an extremely live room. A larger acoustic ensemble is likely to sound better in a less reverberant space. Amplified music tends to work better in spaces where especially the low frequencies are well damped. Here's an article if you are interested: ICA2016-0095.pdf

Having nightmares of mixes lacking low end. Just joking.

The last thing I'll say is that a "good" bass sound is subjective. It's often explained as "working in the mix." Even that is mostly subjective. Example, 2003 I saw Ozzy with Jason Newsted on bass. I'd suppose alot of people would say it "worked" as you could hear every note clearly. But it provided now low end foundation at all.

 

[Zbysek]

I guess I'm just in that camp of wanted to be felt rather than heard precisely.

Me too.

 

[crazyBassClown]

Won't go over well for sure. Just always found it absurd that guitar players get to do their thing but we don't.

I've never had a single foh engineer reject or complain about a preamp signal I've sent them.

So do you get to do your thing, or don't you?

 

[fishdude101101]

So do you get to do your thing, or don't you?

I never said I didn't. I was simply questioning what I consider a dogmatic approach to mixing bass in a live sound setting.

Concrete vs abstract.

 

[crazyBassClown]

The dogmatic approach as you call it only exists in very specific places in my experience, and is no more dogmatic than stick a 57 on the guitar cab and snare and a 58 on the vocals.

 

[fishdude101101]

The dogmatic approach as you call it only exists in very specific places in my experience, and is no more dogmatic than stick a 57 on the guitar cab and snare and a 58 on the vocals.

If those places are specific could you list a couple?

With qualifiers like "most of the time" and "this is how it's done" it would seem it's not in just a fee specific settings according to those offering the explanations.

Moat of those people saying these things can't offer a specific, technical explanation as to why this is so. Explanations are semi technical at best.

 

[crazyBassClown]

If those places are specific could you list a couple?

With qualifiers like "most of the time" and "this is how it's done" it would seem it's not in just a fee specific settings according to those offering the explanations.

Moat of those people saying these things can't offer a specific, technical explanation as to why this is so. Explanations are semi technical at best.

Sound guys working predominantly with inexperienced players may insist on a pre di because it solves them 10 minute of headache undoing whatever the bass player has done every time they change their eq, and some will change it every song.

So basically, anywhere with 3 or 4 unsigned originals bands in a night, festival stages with quick turnover with unsigned or local acts, basically anywhere inexperienced players are likely to turn up.
And the technical reason why is because it makes it much harder for those inexperienced players to cause problems for FOH, and easier to do FOH in general even with more experienced players.
The people complaining about this practice are invariably unsigned original acts bitching about not getting "my sound" at a gig, never the touring pros or even the local cover bands.

I'm curious why you think there is a problem with doing it that way?

 

[SLO Surfer]

What was this thread about again?

 

[fishdude101101]

So basically, anywhere with 3 or 4 unsigned originals bands in a night, festival stages with quick turnover with unsigned or local acts, basically anywhere inexperienced players are likely to turn up.
And the technical reason why is because it makes it much harder for those inexperienced players to cause problems for FOH, and easier to do FOH in general even with more experienced players.
The people complaining about this practice are invariably unsigned original acts bitching about not getting "my sound" at a gig, never the touring pros or even the local cover bands.

I'm curious why you think there is a problem with doing it that way?

Well count me out of the original band scene, only covers here. But yeah I get the reasoning. Again not looking to have "my sound" come through FOH as much as I"m trying to prevent a specific kind of sound from even being possible. Does that make sense. If I feel off enough of the frequencies that I hate is prevents them from being put into the mix unless the engineer want to boost frequencies that aren't there and introduce noise. I don't understand what so wrong with this. I'm just trying to prevent that midrangey Bill Sheehan style tone that, for whatever reason, a lot of engineers and players are into these days. It's pretty much the worst thing ever to my ears.

 

[fishdude101101]

Well count me out of the original band scene, only covers here. But yeah I get the reasoning. Again not looking to have "my sound" come through FOH as much as I"m trying to prevent a specific kind of sound from even being possible. Does that make sense. If I feel off enough of the frequencies that I hate is prevents them from being put into the mix unless the engineer want to boost frequencies that aren't there and introduce noise. I don't understand what so wrong with this. I'm just trying to prevent that midrangey Bill Sheehan style tone that, for whatever reason, a lot of engineers and players are into these days. It's pretty much the worst thing ever to my ears.

And no, I don't really care if the guy behind the desk thinks its the right tone. If they think that sounds good then we shouldn't work together because there's probably not one thing we'd agree on on the entire input list.

 

[five7]

I have mixed over 5000 shows and a d.i. has always worked for me. I have also used mics on cabs. I like d.i.'s better.

 

[fishdude101101]

I have mixed over 5000 shows and a d.i. has always worked for me. I have also used mics on cabs. I like d.i.'s better.

I also prefer a DI. I also prefer to shape the signal just a bit before it goes into the DI.