DI Always Dissapoints

[fishdude101101]

I am 100% okay with effects processing, and less okay with utility processing such as EQ and compression; especially if utility processing is extreme or gets in the way of me doing a good job. Ultimately, I don't have a problem unless what you send me really sounds awful. I won't do anything to intentionally make you sound bad, but sometimes the best thing you can do as an audio tech is take the fader on the bass channel and push it all the way down (primum non nocere applies).

If a tech asks your opinion, tell them the truth. Just do it with a professional demeanor that shows the appropriate amount of respect. In this context try to remember that taste is subjective; and you can say you don't like something without inferring that it sucks or that the person is incompetent.

How emphatic you can be depends on your group hierarchy and whether the audio tech is working for the group or someone else. If everyone in the group has a fairly consistent vision of how the group should sound, it may be possible to leverage the combined power of the group to get the desired change. If everyone in the group has a different idea of what the band should sound like, it's probably best to let it go. What I am trying to say is the situation determines what you can and should do.

Fair enough. I'm never rude, and I usually put in terms of frequencies to add or remove rather than qualitative terms. Usually its more 80hz and less 800hz...

I never send anything awful...I'ma fan of bland and boring tone (to most).

When I was actively mixing I tried not to take much liberty with tones, unless it was unworkable or lacking. It wasn't my art.

 

[crazyBassClown]

I got a board recording of my last gig and it turns out the sound guy is doing a whole heap of delay effects on the vocals that no one on stage has even heard until then.

And to get in some shameless self promotion and indicate how these delays weren't exactly subtle:-

 

[SemiDriven]

And to get in some shameless self promotion and indicate how these delays weren't exactly subtle:-

Yikes! What was your sound guy drinking (or what wasn't he drinking)?

Guess he likes his delay!

 

[crazyBassClown]

Yikes! What was your sound guy drinking (or what wasn't he drinking)?

Guess he likes his delay!

It sounds good, but could definitely be used a bit more sparingly...

The crowd and venue was happy either way.

 

[SemiDriven]

It sounds good, but could definitely be used a bit more sparingly...

The crowd and venue was happy either way.

Just to be clear -- the overall feel of the songs were great!

I agree that the delay needs to be dialed back a bit.

 

[Lesfunk]

Assuming that’s a board recording, that’s not really as bad as it seems. Effects always sound egregious from a board recording but in the room sound appropriate.
If it’s a live room recording… well …yeah….

 

[crazyBassClown]

Assuming that’s a board recording, that’s not really as bad as it seems. Effects always sound egregious from a board recording but in the room sound appropriate.
If it’s a live room recording… well …yeah….

It's off the board, the mix going to the FOH speakers.
I think the delay could be a bit more sparse, in the quieter sections rather than most of the song etc.
But I really don't know what it sounded like in the room, which was the initial point
From stage you couldn't hear the delay at all.

 

[Lesfunk]

It's off the board, the mix going to the FOH speakers.
I think the delay could be a bit more sparse, in the quieter sections rather than most of the song etc.
But I really don't know what it sounded like in the room, which was the initial point
From stage you couldn't hear the delay at all.

I’ll bet a dollar that it sounded great in the room

 

[Zbysek]

What I refuse to do though is tell someone I"m happy with the sound when I'm not. Most techs get upset when you tell them that you don't like what they are doing. What would your reaction be if I shared my dissatisfaction? Most people don't take these kinds of things well.
But I will not lie and say I think the mix sounds good if I think otherwise.

I have never experienced a sound tech asking me whether I like the sound they are sending to the audience.

They ask me whether I am satisfied with my monitor...but they don't need my opinion about the FOH mix.

 

[ga_edwards]

I've read through this thread and was confused as to what exactly the issue was until you brought up this up... When you're playing with a band the dynamics instantly change. Especially if the stage volume is loud. So many things come into play, especially the way the other instruments EQ. Too much low end coming from a guitar player can really wreck a mix. Keyboard players with a heavy left hand etc. Ideally you all want to find your sonic space for things to sound great. I always back off the low end and push the mids. My goal is to hear what I'm doing clearly while not flooding the stage with low end. This helps the engineer do his job as well.

I'm thinking the same thing. There is no way that plugging an XLR into the DI out from the amp into the desk is going to change the sound of the amp. Especially if the OP is saying this has happened with many different amps.

Using the DI output is not going to affect the sound coming out of the speakers in the bass cab.

What is more likely is the mix on stage is overwhelming the bass tone. With real amps, bands often have too much low end on stage. Since my band went all in the Helix and frfr speakers our stage mix has improved immensely. Both guitars and the keyboard have judicious hpf to cut out the extraneous low end. Even I use a fairly high cut on the bass, sometimes up as far as 70-80hz. The guitarists also have their frfr speaker up on half-height PA stands. The result is a much cleaner, and detailed (and quieter) stage mix. It also means what we hear on stage is pretty close to what's going on out front.

 

[fishdude101101]

I have never experienced a sound tech asking me whether I like the sound they are sending to the audience.

They ask me whether I am satisfied with my monitor...but they don't need my opinion about the FOH mix.

More common if they you walking out front during soundcheck. Sometimes you can glean some info about foh from the stage in some venues. Example, last time at a familiar venue with a new tech we could hear all the thump was gone. We could hear feedback in foh.

Many techs are good, some are not. There is a subjective nature to mixing but there are also objectively bad mixes.

Ever foh tech starts off rough in my opinion, myself included when I was actively mixing. Clueless for the first few months.

I just don't agree with the dogmatic approach to mixing. If it sounds good it is good. Never had the ego to assume that my way was the only or best way.

 

[Zbysek]

More common if they you walking out front during soundcheck. Sometimes you can glean some info about foh from the stage in some venues. Example, last time at a familiar venue with a new tech we could hear all the thump was gone. We could hear feedback in foh.

Many techs are good, some are not. There is a subjective nature to mixing but there are also objectively bad mixes.

Ever foh tech starts off rough in my opinion, myself included when I was actively mixing. Clueless for the first few months.

I just don't agree with the dogmatic approach to mixing. If it sounds good it is good. Never had the ego to assume that my way was the only or best way.

I, too, sometimes walk with my wireless into the audience during soundcheck. Never been asked by the sound guy what I think about the mix.

My point was that, IME, most sound guys will not ask for the musicians' opinion regarding FOH mix. So one doesn't need to worry how to answer such a question.

But they surely get unsolicited opinions from some musicians...

 

[fishdude101101]

I, too, sometimes walk with my wireless into the audience during soundcheck. Never been asked by the sound guy what I think about the mix.

My point was that, IME, most sound guys will not ask for the musicians' opinion regarding FOH mix. So one doesn't need to worry how to answer such a question.

But they surely get unsolicited opinions from some musicians...

Well maybe I'll keep my opinion to myself then and just skip over their name the next time I have a choice in hiring production or if the venue allows it, bring our own engineer and still use house sound.

They can do what they want, but if it's my(our) money involved and we have a choice I'm not obligated to use them.

 

[Zbysek]

Well maybe I'll keep my opinion to myself then and just skip over their name the next time I have a choice in hiring production or if the venue allows it, bring our own engineer and still use house sound.

They can do what they want, but if it's my(our) money involved and we have a choice I'm not obligated to use them.

That's what I would do...

Take care.

 

[Jeremy Jones]

Ok a couple of things here. (sorry if I am repeating or missed something)

Sounds like once you plug into a DI you loose your sound but if you are plugged strait into your amp you have your sound. I am assume the signal chain is something like bass to DI, XLR to FOH, 1/4 to Amp. Has the connection from the 1/4 to the amp been checked? maybe there is something wrong there.

Other than that this what I do to make sure i am sending the sound I want to FOH I use a Bass Fly rig to A Tech 21 Power Engine Deuce Deluxe with a 2/10 EXT cab The Power engine is a FRFR speaker and I use the 2/10 kind of like a Sub. The Power engine sends Pre EQ but because the bass fly rig has the Sansamp on it I dial what I need to send to the FOH from there. This has worked very well for me and most FOH Ops like that. When I hear recording back of the front of the house mix I am generally happy with what i hear. During the gig I do not touch the sans amp settings. If I need to adjust some for my stage sound I can do that At the The Power engine with out messing with front of house. (It also helps that I keep my stage volume pretty low. If I had a very loud stage volume that can effect the House sound if I mess with something.) With this setup I know I am sending the FOH "My sound". With that all being said no matter what I send to FOH I can not control what they are doing with that sound once it gets to them. My rule thumb here is to try and make friends with the sound guy.

 

[crazyBassClown]

They can do what they want, but if it's my(our) money involved and we have a choice I'm not obligated to use them.

There's a reason international acts often tour with the same soundguy for years, even when using house systems.

 

[fishdude101101]

There's a reason international acts often tour with the same soundguy for years, even when using house systems.

Yes. And trust me they aren't all doing flat unprocessed bass to FOH via DI. A quick view of some rig rundowns on YouTube will prove this. They are sometimes taking a combination of flat, post eq di, and cab mic. I've seen it on many technical riders and input lists. But what do I know.

 

[crazyBassClown]

I've seen it on many technical riders and input lists. But what do I know.

I know that you aren't getting that from the guy getting a couple of hundred to run the desk for the show that night. If you want that level of service it comes with a pricetag $$$$.

 

[Wasnex]

Yes. And trust me they aren't all doing flat unprocessed bass to FOH via DI. A quick view of some rig rundowns on YouTube will prove this. They are sometimes taking a combination of flat, post eq di, and cab mic. I've seen it on many technical riders and input lists. But what do I know.

In my experience, the vast majority of pros are just plugging into a flat DI. But yes, you are correct; there are exceptions.

Big touring groups tend to do involved tech rehearsals to get their sound dialed in. Sometimes tech rehearsals can run days if not weeks, so it's more reasonable to use an idiosyncratic setup. Also, if you really are a big dog, you often have the ability to call the shots and the ability to hire a team of top professionals who know how to deal with your unique requirements, regardless of whether they have merit or not. Despite all of these advantages, it's not hard to find people complaining because they went to see their favorite artist and the sound was awful .

 

[fishdude101101]

In my experience, the vast majority of pros are just plugging into a flat DI. But yes, you are correct; there are exceptions.

Big touring groups tend to do involved tech rehearsals to get their sound dialed in. Sometimes tech rehearsals can run days if not weeks, so it's more reasonable to use an idiosyncratic setup. Also, if you really are a big dog, you often have the ability to call the shots and the ability to hire a team of top professionals who know how to deal with your unique requirements, regardless of whether they have merit or not. Despite all of these advantages, it's not hard to find people complaining because they went to see their favorite artist and the sound was awful .

I've never had an engineer refuse to try it my way, nor did I ever refuse it to try it for someone else. Never really had any complaints either.

However, I've had peers who had no problem telling a bass player what to do, but those same guys would never ever tell a guitar player what to do with his sound. Not sure why other than its a status thing. Yes I have a chip on my shoulder lol. Probably why I love playing a band now where guitar is NOT the featured instrument most fo the time and playing for crowds that don't want to hear a 20 minute solo over 12 bar blues.