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DI Always Dissapoints

Have messages from quite a lot of members for their dislike of DI’s and using a Beta 52 instead.to answer as many scenarios as I can.I have used Ampeg Pre amps with DI ‘s built in, Alembic Pre amps, Bergantino HP , Forte,Mesa d 800 now using the Mesa WD 800 . Make no mistake they all worked well in FOH.it was my Stage tone that changed from when I did my initial plug in to make sure my rigged work to the sound check where I was plugged in playing with the band. I have read every post , yes my bottom 15 is off the ground to 2 sep cabs side by side angled.I am constantly fighting myself on stage. The best was when I used the DI from the head and mic’d the cab.I appreciate all the input as seemed I have touched a nerve between the sound guys and the bass players.Happy Holidays

I've read through this thread and was confused as to what exactly the issue was until you brought up this up... When you're playing with a band the dynamics instantly change. Especially if the stage volume is loud. So many things come into play, especially the way the other instruments EQ. Too much low end coming from a guitar player can really wreck a mix. Keyboard players with a heavy left hand etc. Ideally you all want to find your sonic space for things to sound great. I always back off the low end and push the mids. My goal is to hear what I'm doing clearly while not flooding the stage with low end. This helps the engineer do his job as well.
 
Well, no, they don't. Some will prefer a passive DI over an active because there is no way that an electrical spike can travel over a passive DI to take out a channel on the board, so technically, there are safer. (And certainly more reliable.)

I do get confused by this pure signal to FOH stuff, cause you are right, many basses have active eq, and all basses have a volume control. My basses have pickups switches and coil-taps, and tons other features that change the EQ and output volume of the instrument. And then there is switching between an active 5-string and a passive fretless 4.

For me, I tend to set up the amp for best stage eq and volume. I will change it as the night goes on to suite my tastes and the ever rising stage volume. (Plus ear fatigue.)

So being able to do that without affecting FOH is good. On the other hand, there is my fuzz pedal!
I never change eq or gain after sound check.

Allow active basses effectively nullifies the majority of the pre vs post argument.
 
I've read through this thread and was confused as to what exactly the issue was until you brought up this up... When you're playing with a band the dynamics instantly change. Especially if the stage volume is loud. So many things come into play, especially the way the other instruments EQ. Too much low end coming from a guitar player can really wreck a mix. Keyboard players with a heavy left hand etc. Ideally you all want to find your sonic space for things to sound great. I always back off the low end and push the mids. My goal is to hear what I'm doing clearly while not flooding the stage with low end. This helps the engineer do his job as well.


Telecaster == :)
Les Paul == :(
 
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@harleybass ,
Can you please explain why the addition of a DI makes you play harder? Are you saying it changes the sound from your amp on stage? Are you saying that your amp plus the PA makes it harder to hear yourself?

I have read all your posts in this thread and I don't see this explained. You say it becomes muffled but don't indicate from what source it becomes muffled.
 
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With both a DI and a mic it will sound like the sound guy wants it to in the middle of the audience.
The mic also won't sound like your amp does when standing next to it, it will sound how it does if you press your ear against the speaker, which won't be the same. Where on the speaker you place the mic will change the sound drastically as well.
You can definitely overthink this stuff. Get a good sound with your rig (with the band), mic it up, away you go. Your sound, the band sound, but now through the PA. No more drama than every other thing mic’d on stage. If anything it’s better and easier for the engineer. Heck, some have even said as much to me when I’ve given them the option. How it sounds in the audience ain’t something you need to or want to even bother with. Someone else’s job.
 
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I have read all your posts in this thread and I don't see this explained.
This is because the OP really doesn't seem to understand what the actual problem is.
"My bass becomes muffled sounding" is how I would describe the lows from the PA overpowering the sound from my amp when using a big FOH system, but I am not the OP.
 
Hey I'm not trying to torment anyone or make anyone's job impossibly hard. I just know what I don't want. I get your point about hiring someone who will give me that, but I get "that's how it cuts through the mix" often. Of course we both know hiring this person is easier said than done. What I refuse to do though is tell someone I"m happy with the sound when I'm not. Most techs get upset when you tell them that you don't like what they are doing. What would your reaction be if I shared my dissatisfaction? Most people don't take these kinds of things well.

Again I'm not asking them to replicate my stage sound. I'm asking them just to not do one or two specific things. No honky mids, warm and smooth. That's it pretty much.

I still don't see the big difference between FOH accepting an active bass straight through a DI, or taking a preamp pedal inline via instrument cable if they don't want XLR. I'm not adjusting anything after sound check, ever.

I'm not as hard to work with as it may seem. If you're the house guy I'll ultimately end up doing what I'm told to do. But I will not lie and say I think the mix sounds good if I think otherwise. If I'm paying for production, I'll dictate this or I'll hire someone who will do what I want.

I am not accusing you of intentionally tormenting someone. But it can happen unintentionally.

I don't really see another way through your dilemma other than hiring a tech who mixes the way you want. I am not saying finding the right tech is easy.

Here's another possible piece of the puzzle. Good techs don't intentionally mix in a way that sounds bad. But you may think it sounds bad. The point is good VS bad is subjective. You hate what they like, and they hate what you like :confused::banghead:.

I would think most good techs care about protecting their reputation. If they think the sound you want is bad, then they are less likely to do what you ask. It might seem like they are tormenting you, but there is not necessarily a conscious intent to torment behind their actions. Rather they are trying to do a good job that they think will build and maintain their reputation. But unfortunately, you are stressed/frustrated because they are not doing what you want them to do.

So you really have two choices...try to force them to do what you want or hire someone who does what you want willingly. Given a choice, I am sure you would choose the second option.

The functional difference between an active bass through a DI, and using a Preamp DI really depends on how you use the controls on the bass and the Preamp DI. The Preamp DI is an extra layer of gain stages and also potentially an extra layer of processing. Some players use fairly aggressive EQ on their bass and then turn around and layer on a lot more EQ with a preamp DI. They also apply even more EQ with their amp. It's generally not a great idea to cascade three stages of heavy EQ IMHO.

I generally run my bass flat with the volume wide open when I am using an amp. I get my basic sound by adjusting the controls on the amp. My DI is typically separate or set to Pre if it comes from the amp. The advantage is I am able to tweak my sound as desired without jacking any of the mixes. During the show I may make subtle adjustments to my bass's tone and pickup blend controls to suit individual songs. Since this sort of change will impact all of the mixes, IMHO it's a good idea to confirm the changes work as expected through the PA during sound check.

I don't generally have any need to use a Preamp DI if I have an amp on stage. With some of my amps I could see the benefit of using an inline EQ pedal, as the tone controls on some amps don't really do what I want. But I would still prefer plugging my bass into a DI before the signal goes to the inline EQ, so the audio tech gets an unprocessed signal

I already explained a situation where I would consider a Preamp DI advantageous.
 
I am not accusing you of intentionally tormenting someone. But it can happen unintentionally.

I don't really see another way through your dilemma other than hiring a tech who mixes the way you want. I am not saying finding the right tech is easy.

Here's another possible piece of the puzzle. Good techs don't intentionally mix in a way that sounds bad. But you may think it sounds bad. The point is good VS bad is subjective. You hate what they like, and they hate what you like :confused::banghead:.

I would think most good techs care about protecting their reputation. If they think the sound you want is bad, then they are less likely to do what you ask. It might seem like they are tormenting you, but there is not necessarily a conscious intent to torment behind their actions. Rather they are trying to do a good job that they think will build and maintain their reputation. But unfortunately, you are stressed/frustrated because they are not doing what you want them to do.

So you really have two choices...try to force them to do what you want or hire someone who does what you want willingly. Given a choice, I am sure you would choose the second option.

The functional difference between an active bass through a DI, and using a Preamp DI really depends on how you use the controls on the bass and the Preamp DI. The Preamp DI is an extra layer of gain stages and also potentially an extra layer of processing. Some players use fairly aggressive EQ on their bass and then turn around and layer on a lot more EQ with a preamp DI. They also apply even more EQ with their amp. It's generally not a great idea to cascade three stages of heavy EQ IMHO.

I generally run my bass flat with the volume wide open when I am using an amp. I get my basic sound by adjusting the controls on the amp. My DI is typically separate or set to Pre if it comes from the amp. The advantage is I am able to tweak my sound as desired without jacking any of the mixes. During the show I may make subtle adjustments to my bass's tone and pickup blend controls to suit individual songs. Since this sort of change will impact all of the mixes, IMHO it's a good idea to confirm the changes work as expected through the PA during sound check.

I don't generally have any need to use a Preamp DI if I have an amp on stage. With some of my amps I could see the benefit of using an inline EQ pedal, as the tone controls on some amps don't really do what I want. But I would still prefer plugging my bass into a DI before the signal goes to the inline EQ, so the audio tech gets an unprocessed signal

I already explained a situation where I would consider a Preamp DI advantageous.

I never, literally never change my amp settings after sound check. I don't use radical EQ. All I want is a little bump around 60-80z (or higher depending on other factors) and a little dip in the upper mids.

I'm not assuming bad intent on anyone's part. I just know anytime the tech asks me what I think of the sound, they don't want a real answer. Should I lie if they ask my opinion?

Of course I'd rather hire someone who does what I want. I wouldn't eat at restaurant that only served well-done steak or drink at bar that only served IPA's. Taste in tone and other things is subjective. My interview question might be "do you think Billy Sheehan, Steve Harris, or Lemmy have good tone?" If they say "yes" I know to pass on that tech.

I don't disagree with your logic, just the overall dogmatic approach that bass shouldn't never send a processed signal to FOH.
 
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Volume on the amp is floored and then adjusted with the bass instrument volume or the other way around?

Just clarifying.

If I run an amp, I adjust stage volume using the amp. The volume control on the bass is used more like an on off switch. For the most part I control my dynamics with touch.

My bass has master volume, blend, bass, and treble controls. It also has piezos on the bridge saddles with a piezo volume/blend control and a phase switch.

I usually run the master volume at 100%, blend slightly favoring the neck, bass and treble at +/- 0, piezo volume/blend at about 40%. I have a preference for the phase switch, but I don't know if it's considered in or out of phase.
 
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I never, literally never change my amp settings after sound check. I don't use radical EQ. All I want is a little bump around 60-80z (or higher depending on other factors) and a little dip in the upper mids.

I'm not assuming bad intent on anyone's part. I just know anytime the tech asks me what I think of the sound, they don't want a real answer. Should I lie if they ask my opinion?

Of course I'd rather hire someone who does what I want. I wouldn't eat at restaurant that only served well-done steak or drink at bar that only served IPA's. Taste in tone and other things is subjective. My interview question might be "do you think Billy Sheehan, Steve Harris, or Lemmy have good tone?" If they say "yes" I know to pass on that tech.

I don't disagree with your logic, just the overall dogmatic approach that bass shouldn't never send a processed signal to FOH.

I am 100% okay with effects processing, and less okay with utility processing such as EQ and compression; especially if utility processing is extreme or gets in the way of me doing a good job. Ultimately, I don't have a problem unless what you send me really sounds awful. I won't do anything to intentionally make you sound bad, but sometimes the best thing you can do as an audio tech is take the fader on the bass channel and push it all the way down (primum non nocere applies).

If a tech asks your opinion, tell them the truth. Just do it with a professional demeanor that shows the appropriate amount of respect. In this context try to remember that taste is subjective; and you can say you don't like something without inferring that it sucks or that the person is incompetent.

How emphatic you can be depends on your group hierarchy and whether the audio tech is working for the group or someone else. If everyone in the group has a fairly consistent vision of how the group should sound, it may be possible to leverage the combined power of the group to get the desired change. If everyone in the group has a different idea of what the band should sound like, it's probably best to let it go. What I am trying to say is the situation determines what you can and should do.
 
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I agree with the OP’s original point - which I interpret as the DI generally having a crummy sound and perceived lower output which makes you feel like you need to dig in.

This was my experience in using a Countryman DI for years on lots of gigs and recordings. But the DI was just doing it’s job being all flat.

I guess that’s why cats started using pristine preamp/DIs like Avalons, etc. Fortunately my gig amps all seem to have clean sounding Xlr outs. If it’s a nice system in a real club I give the sound guy the pre out. If it’s more DYI, I’ll go post out so I can help dial in the room.
 
which I interpret as the DI generally having a crummy sound and perceived lower output which makes you feel like you need to dig in.
How are you hearing the DI's output?
I got a board recording of my last gig and it turns out the sound guy is doing a whole heap of delay effects on the vocals that no one on stage has even heard until then. You really can't hear what's happening out front from on the stage with any serious PA system.
 
If I run an amp, I adjust stage volume using the amp. The volume control on the bass is used more like an on off switch. For the most part I control my dynamics with touch.

My bass has...the master volume at 100%, blend slightly favoring the neck, bass and treble at +/- 0....

Ditto -- that's what I try to aim for.

I mainly use the tuner mute button to control on/off.

Touch dynamics depends largely on whether you can hear yourself fairly clearly (environment, mix, etc.). And more times than not, I find myself digging in because I can't hear myself the way I want to be heard (so this thread is very helpful!). This is especially true in smaller bars (or in open jams where the equipment isn't yours and you're somewhat at the mercy of whoever is in charge of the mix). But to be fair regarding the smaller bars, my band tends to favor 3-sonic avenues: Loud, LOUDER, and LOUDEST. :) Yeah, we can depend on our sound guy to tell us to turn the stage volume down at a lot of gigs. And, most of the time, he doesn't even bother to put me through the FOH.

When I play at church, one of the sound guys, when he's in charge of the mix (who also happens to be a guitarist & bassist), insists on getting a certain sound from all the bass players which includes treble all the way up. I get it, he wants to make sure the bass is not getting too lost/muddy off the stage. Recently, I nonchalantly asked him if he wouldn't mind me dialing the treble back for a song that was more p-bass suited (more bass). He agreed and told me afterwards he liked it. Progress!
 
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