• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

DI Always Dissapoints

For those of us who use IEM's either with or without cabs/monitors on stage, what are some pedalboard IEM mixer recommendations?

Appreciate OP's topic...this discussion is causing lightbulbs to turn on in my head. :thumbsup:
I assume you are talking about being able to run your own IEM mixes independently from FOH?
Basically, an on-stage digital mixer with your own splitter snake to feed FOH (if FOH doesn't have a split to give you)
Most small footprint digital consoles will work.
Here's a pic of our/my band setup.. there's also details in the google doc in my sig. Feel free to pm me with questions.
IEM_Split_Config.png
 
  • Like
Reactions: SemiDriven
I always ask to be removed from the monitors. Rarely can they perform better than my rig. I've even used a Baby Blue II on a large stage. Only my partner and I had to hear it. The FOH did the lifting.

Philosophically if the band sounds good at talking volume without any PA than you can let the engineer amplify you. Making the engineer master you live unless they are your employee is asking for trouble. Balance on stage is your responsibility. Can your band hear each other without outside intervention?:)
 
Last edited:
I know what you mean about the DI being kind of sterile. I always run a mid boost pedal before the DI, so that you can kind of "play the gain" in addition to the bass.

A nice hot signal kind of makes the tone jump off the strings. You could try that. I have never met a sound person that ran the bass into a DI before the player's pedal board.
 
1. Get a pedal preamp. Even an old school one like a SABDDI will work wonders.

2. Fuss with it through a clean rig till it sounds the way you like. Try setting the drive higher than you want it then playing lighter till it cleans up.

3. Get underpants.

4. ?

5. Profit.


Alternatively get an amp that has a post DI out and use that. I get the occasional grimace from FOH guys when they realize my walkabout DI is post everything but once they hear a few notes they mellow out. I've yet to have any FOH engineer complain about the DI signal on that amp.
 
Thanks for the precise , on the money explanation.I, all my life seem to be fighting with myself on stage often to the point of pain.You say there is no difference in the direct out. If so if I’ve fighting with this all my life. When a sound company comes to me with a DI I first ask them to use my direct out of the amp. For many gigs the sound company FOH will tell me I’m getting this noise , that hum after trying to fix I wind up using theirs and I’m not impressed I will always ask the FOH to EQ my bass differently than the kick so it doesn’t get buried in the mix. I thank you for giving such a detailed description on what’s really going on . At the end of the gig I’m usually not happy
Sincerest Regards and Merry Christmas
John
The best thing I did the past few years for my sound was to get a high pass filter. By using it was able to eliminate frequencies that my cabs couldn't handle anyway and able to focus my sound into usable frequencies as WASNEX has suggested. In using the HPF my tone shaping is almost perfectly flat now and never notched or excessive in any tone range. Any overtones or subharmonics are now the responsibility of the FOH or recording engineer to add in. Fundamentals ring clear and any effects work in harmony when the HPF is placed correctly in the signal chain. The newer MESA's have HPF's as do some of the Genzler amps, but I've never been happier and my bass has never been clearer at gigs and recording dates since I started using the HPF. Remove the mud and the signal you feed your rig and your FOH sound will be that much better IMO. Worth a try and a small investment for a big return. Best Holiday Wishes, Mike.
 
TLDR - I started using the Sansamp VT Bass DI for a DI at shows. Reason being my Quilter BB800's DI is all post and directly related to the master volume. Any changes I make to the stage volume is made to the DI signal. It has a cab sim and a myriad of I/O options. In fact - the first time I used it as a DI at a show I got an unsolicited compliment on my sound from a bassist in the next band.
 
The best thing I did the past few years for my sound was to get a high pass filter. By using it was able to eliminate frequencies that my cabs couldn't handle anyway and able to focus my sound into usable frequencies as WASNEX has suggested. In using the HPF my tone shaping is almost perfectly flat now and never notched or excessive in any tone range. Any overtones or subharmonics are now the responsibility of the FOH or recording engineer to add in. Fundamentals ring clear and any effects work in harmony when the HPF is placed correctly in the signal chain. The newer MESA's have HPF's as do some of the Genzler amps, but I've never been happier and my bass has never been clearer at gigs and recording dates since I started using the HPF. Remove the mud and the signal you feed your rig and your FOH sound will be that much better IMO. Worth a try and a small investment for a big return. Best Holiday Wishes, Mike.
HPF is one of those things that-- as a bass player-- you hear it and think, "Why on earth would I want to do that?" And then you do it, and you figure out why. I sorta figured it out on my own, because having a bass that has a ton of low end and low mids made me start habitually turning the bass knob on amps down, sometimes significantly.
 
This Posting is years in the making. For Years I have played through many rigs and DI's. The minute I plug and play, whether its the back of a Mesa WD 800 in 2021 on the PRE Setting not Post, or An Ampeg SVT in the 70's using a Direct Box provided by the sound company, I seem to constantly overplay and not get the sound I'm searching for. The Sound company's frown upon using a microphone on your rig in fear of bleeding. There has been a handful of times when I used both a DI and a microphone where it was acceptable. This past year i have down sized from an Ampeg Pre Amp and trying numerous power amps to trying 2 different Bergantino's and two different Mesa's with 2 Subway single 15 Cabs. I just seem to chug and get no response in return. I have Played Alembic Basses all my life. I'm Playing Southern Rock and Blues and I love that E note which always seems to get squashed. I'm a seasoned Pro looking for guidance. Thank You
Having played for over 45 years through about everything imaginable, for my 10-piece party band I play through a Behringer passive DI box into my band's Behringer digital board and large sound system. The bass is EMG actives, although I have used other basses at times. It lives up to the Sweetwater review of it having the most clarity and best uncolored uncompressed bandwidth, including clarity on the E and B strings.
Behringer Ultra-DI DI400P 1-channel Passive Instrument Direct Box
The Great Direct Box Comparison with Audio Samples
Sweetwater just did a huge bass DI shootout
 
Sorry crazyBass clown if your struggling that I’m playing harder when the DI is plugged in.It’s very real ,I play with a pick and at the end of the show there is pick dust from the fender heavy’s I use.for a lack of a better word my bass feels like it’s muffled .After many tours , spoken to many players and it’s a common topic of discussion.Alan Woody once told me F##ck those DI’s just give me 4 fridges and a mic.

I wonder if you're used to the natural compression you get from your valve amp. Perhaps a little extra compression on the desk would help your DI signal in the monitors feel a little more natural.

If I play without compression it feels like the action is higher on my bass, and I have to play harder. It's a strange psycho acoustic phenomenon.
 
I wonder if you're used to the natural compression you get from your valve amp. Perhaps a little extra compression on the desk would help your DI signal in the monitors feel a little more natural.

If I play without compression it feels like the action is higher on my bass, and I have to play harder. It's a strange psycho acoustic phenomenon.

That is my thought exactly.
 
This Posting is years in the making.For Years I have played through many rigs and DI's.The minute I plug and play, whether its the back of a Mesa WD 800 in 2021 on the PRE Setting not Post, or An Ampeg SVT in the 70's using a Direct Box provided by the sound company, I seem to constantly overplay and not get the sound I'm searching for.The Sound company's frown upon using a microphone on your rig in fear of bleeding.There has been a handful of times when I used both a DI and a microphone where it was acceptable.This past year i have down sized from an Ampeg Pre Amp and trying numerous power amps to trying 2 different Bergantino's and two differerent Mesa's with 2 Subway single 15 Cabs.I just seem to chug and get no response in return.I have Played Alembic Basses all my life.Im Playing Southern Rock and Blues and I love that E note which always seems to get squashed.I'm a seasoned Pro looking for guidance.Thank You

I am missing here what amp/cab modelling DIs you might have tried. ?

I've always found getting a good DI sound for bass:
1) acceptable but not very good - right off the pedalboard (even when I used very few pedals, I had a tuner and overdrive at least, we'll call that the pedalboard)
2) decent but not great - DI out of my amp, post preamp. Sounds 50% to 75% there.
3) decent to great - Bass amp/cab sim DI. OR a cab sim after the amp's DI (but that requires cables back and forth). Need something with cabinet simulation. e.g. using a DSM Humboldt Electronics Simplifier Bass Station currently.
 
Have messages from quite a lot of members for their dislike of DI’s and using a Beta 52 instead.to answer as many scenarios as I can.I have used Ampeg Pre amps with DI ‘s built in, Alembic Pre amps, Bergantino HP , Forte,Mesa d 800 now using the Mesa WD 800 . Make no mistake they all worked well in FOH.it was my Stage tone that changed from when I did my initial plug in to make sure my rigged work to the sound check where I was plugged in playing with the band. I have read every post , yes my bottom 15 is off the ground to 2 sep cabs side by side angled.I am constantly fighting myself on stage. The best was when I used the DI from the head and mic’d the cab.I appreciate all the input as seemed I have touched a nerve between the sound guys and the bass players.Happy Holidays
 
I've always sent the DI signal after my pedal board, before it hits the amp. For a few reasons:


1) Sound engineer gets a DI signal from my bass, no dirt, no EQ. I play clean mostly and bring the growl by digging in, so this works for me. If I used a dirt pedal though, I can see this method not working out so well, since distortion/OD really needs a cab sim to sound right. In that case, I'd follow JimmyM's advice:

I ended up making my DI sound as close as possible to the amp'ed sound. Bought a REDDI, bought a VT Deluxe, used the VT for dirt and high/low pass filtering, and I became happy with the DI.

2) I can raise or lower my volume on stage or change EQ/HPF settings without it affecting the FOH signal.

3) I adjust for each song by rolling off the tone knob on my bass as needed. This will affect the tone out front for sure, but only the highs. Yes, the mids & lows do get affected slightly, but not enough to be drastic.

IME, sound engineers prefer a pre-eq DI signal – depending on the room, bass guitar can be VERY challenging for FOH, so I like to make things as clean & easy as possible for them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JimmyM and Zbysek
I appreciate all the input as seemed I have touched a nerve between the sound guys and the bass players.Happy Holidays

Well...nerves can be especially sensitive during the holidays. :D

Sounds like you have a plan (or two) in motion to help you hear yourself better on stage. Hope it works out for you (and post what solution eventually gives you the most satisfaction).

Thanks for bringing this topic up -- brought some clarity to the subject (at least to me).
 
The DI should have no impact on the sound that comes from your rig. Any degradation you are getting should be coming from other sound sources that are using your signal.

I generally do not like having my bass added to my monitor mix. Frequently this creates the sensation that the monitors are fighting with my rig, rather than working with it. In actuality, they sort of are fighting because the problem is destructive interference called comb filtering. Comb filter occurs when you hear the same sound coming from two or more different sources, and the arrival time of the sound from each source is different.


Part of the problem is the different distances from your ears to each cab, and part of may be the difference in how your bass cab and the monitors are tuned. If you used identical cabs for your rig and the monitors, you would get the best sound by spacing them so they are equidistant from you head. The idea is so the sound from each source arrives at your ears at exactly the same time. When the spacing is not equal, the sound from each cab arrives at your ears at a different time which results in phase variances between the two signals. At frequencies where the signals arrive in phase they add, and at the frequencies where the signals arrive out of phase they cancel.

When you have reflex designs with significantly different tunings, you have another type of phase variance. Each tuning will have somewhat unique phase shift and group delay characteristics in the frequency band where the port is active. So even if the different cabs are equidistant from your ears, they may fight around the port tuning frequency. This can create a perception that the sound is hollow. or lacks power and focus.

I recommend some degree of compartmentalization. Worry primarily about your stage sound, and avoid trying to maintain 100% control over how you sound out in the house.

The reason, IMHO your sound needs to be processed for intended use and location. The sound you desire on stage will change as it travels out into the audience. In other words, the great sound you get on stage will not sound the same out in the audience. If your amp is pushing the room, it's fairly typical for the group leader to go out in the house during sound check to call tone changes back to you on stage. The idea is some degree of priority is given to making you sound good to the audience, and this process can degrade the quality of sound you are getting on stage.

Also, the tone and amount of compression you find ideal on stage for your monitoring purpose may not work well in the house mix. In order to do the job, the audio tech requires some degree of artistic freedom to shape all of the sound sources in a way that allows him/her to build a good sounding mix. Ideally the audio tech should have a clear idea of what sort of sound you are going for. The end result should be in the same ball park, but it's really not reasonable to expect it to be exactly the same as the sound you hear on stage.

The reality is it can be difficult if not impossible to deliver a really good bass sound to the audience. In my experience the quality of the bass tends to vary significantly from one gig site to the next. This is just the nature of the beast. Having great gear does improve the quality, but cannot eliminate all of the problems that degrade your sound. To some degree the most important thing is to recognize the limits of what can be achieved and adjust your expectations accordingly. Focus less on having perfect sound and more on making perfect music. IMHO great musicians anticipate this problem and work through it.

On rare occasion you will experience a situation where are all of the factors that degrade your sound seem to work out by serendipity. When this occurs, enjoy it because it will not happen frequently. Try not to draw any premature conclusions from the experience. For example, if you are playing a backline rig that it new to you, don't assume the rig is solely responsible for the great sound. It's likely that if you use the same rig at a different performance venue that the sound will be totally different. I.E. the rig may have little if anything to do with having great sound on a given gig.

Sorry I know this is probably not what you wanted. But it is, unfortunately how things work IMHO.

My approach as a bassist: My preference is more towards full-range, flat-response. However, long ago I gave up on the idea of having a really fat bass sound on stage. I find the clarity and focus is the most important thing I am looking for, and cranking up the lows beyond a certain level tends to cause masking that degrades the clarity and focus in the mids and highs.

My approach is typically to elevate my cab and tilt it back to aim at my head. The dispersion of a bass cab will change with the frequency. At low frequencies the cab is essentially omnidirectional. As the frequency goes up, the cab will start to force more and more of the sound out front. At higher frequencies the sound from one cone drive will form into a cone shaped beam. If the cab is flat on the floor, this beam of sound will shout out way below your ears, so you won't hear it.

Elevating the cab reduces the lows and puts a notch in the low mids related to the height of the cab. Tilting the cab back to aim at your head ensures you hear the full range of the direct sound coming from the cab. If you prefer clear articulate sound, I suggest trying this approach. However, if you like big fat lows, you probably won't like it.
My experience is in-line with yours exactly, especially on these points you raised in your post:
1) destructive interference
2) Focus less on having perfect sound and more on making perfect music. (YES!!!)
3) elevate my cab and tilt it back to aim at my head (!!!)

I have found these to be important considerations, and in my own recent experience, I found that raising my
cabs alone has made a huge difference in usable dispersion. Case in point: I risked (yes , risked) using a BAM200 and a pair of BC208 cabs at our last show for the year. I was using about 50% of the amp, but the little 8" speakers were doin' it. They were stacked vertically and raised 3' from the ground.
You raised the salient points to consider and I hope others take notes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zbysek and Wasnex
Someone above suggested using a Shure Beta 52. This is the frequency response curve of that mic:

cf2a183b-1fa4-4a0e-8a7f-652e2d11ee80_1024x1024@2x.jpg


Pretty baked-in sound if you ask me. I agree with comments that you should not use a mic intended for bass drums.

Here is the FR curve for a Shure SM7B:

sm57_fr.png


Much better for bass guitar IMO. (Plus is has some contour switches for different FR curves.)

Electro-Voice RE20:

re20-f.gif


Both of these mics are high SPL dynamics that will take a beating.
 
Last edited:
I played in a band with a guitarist who insisted I sounded worse when I used a DI. Our PA guy was a better friend with me than with guitar man, so I tested the theory by miking my cab with a mic that wasn't plugged in to anything and then just DIing out the back of my amp. Guitar man never noticed. I played every show of my last few years with that band like this.

My theory is that DIing without proper cabinet simulation on the DI signal tends to result in sounds that most bass players wouldn't find appealing. I also tend to use my amp as a monitor rather than rely on PA, so I don't get as much of the issue of conflicting signals between amp and PA.
 
  • Like
Reactions: s0c9 and SemiDriven