DI Always Dissapoints

[SLO Surfer]

I turn up my amp if I feel like I have to dig in too hard to play.

Try it!

 

[SonnyBassPlayer]

I just got IR's of my very own cab and stuck them into a Mooer Radar. This way my head DI (post ofc) goes into the Radar "cab" and I feed the mixer with my post eq cabbet signal.

 

[Zbysek]

What I will be trying is using a sure 57 and see what happens.

Hi,

AFAIK, Shure SM57 is not the best choice when you want to mic your bass cabinet without using additional DI...as it cuts low frequencies quite a bit...

You might consider other microphones if you wanna take this route..

Good luck!

 

[bassbrad]

A simple issue that causes a problem with a Mic on a bass amp is most often of is the same Mic used on the bass drum, small wonder there is no definition from using a Mic with the same performance profile. Even if you take your own Mic if the sound person is not familiar with it, chances are you will not get a satisfying result.

Being both a live and studio engineer I do my best to give the sound person a simple solution for my bass sound. I create my sound on my pedal board and DI straight from there. My stage amp is a full range monitor.

 

[InnerCityBass]

Thanks for the precise , on the money explanation.I, all my life seem to be fighting with myself on stage often to the point of pain.You say there is no difference in the direct out. If so if I’ve fighting with this all my life. When a sound company comes to me with a DI I first ask them to use my direct out of the amp. For many gigs the sound company FOH will tell me I’m getting this noise , that hum after trying to fix I wind up using theirs and I’m not impressed I will always ask the FOH to EQ my bass differently than the kick so it doesn’t get buried in the mix. I thank you for giving such a detailed description on what’s really going on . At the end of the gig I’m usually not happy
Sincerest Regards and Merry Christmas
John

Playing on many stages, with acts in various genres, and sound engineers of all levels, I also have to deal with a poopie sound in the FOH, and monitors when I rarely get some there. It's not that sound engineers always make a bad sound, but they far too often make a sound that is out of character with the style of music being played.

I also often experience that they A use their own DI or take a line put from whatever amp I'm using, where they always make sure that the get the PRE signal (sigh). My solution has been to get a pedal board, with an equalizer on there, because that way I can help the sound engineers on the right path. If what you play, don't need anything above 5K, you cut it off, so they can't overdo it. If you play with an old school blues act, you can cut the sub frequencies that sound guy love sooo much, so they can't overdo that part, etc.

 

[MYLOWFREQ]

Straight DI won't sound exciting in the PA. I'm a sound person as well and I don't like using mics on bass rigs personally, but my DI I send to the PA is post SansAmp. I'd suggest getting an amp simulation pedal, like the one I have (there's a lot of options these days) and sending that to the PA. Don't let the sound person take your dry signal. If they won't take the XLR out, give them the colored 1/4" out from your DI (not the bypassed or direct out).

However, in this scenario you should be sure that you're sending the sound person something that they can work with.

 

[Zooberwerx]

Straight DI won't sound exciting in the PA. I'm a sound person as well and I don't like using mics on bass rigs personally, but my DI I send to the PA is post SansAmp. I'd suggest getting an amp simulation pedal, like the one I have (there's a lot of options these days) and sending that to the PA. Don't let the sound person take your dry signal. If they won't take the XLR out, give them the colored 1/4" out from your DI (not the bypassed or direct out).

However, in this scenario you should be sure that you're sending the sound person something that they can work with.

This or a cab sim pedal. I prefer to have this contained on my pedal board as opposed to using the amp's DI out.

For the OP: any way you can do a non-gig isolated hook-up > FOH / PA rig to dial things in or select the best components? We did this with Tim's SansAmp Guitar Fly-Rig (...turned off his Peavey combo!) and it was nothing short of spectacular.

Riis

 

[trevcda]

I couldn't find the original response to quote it, but who ever said that they didn't like the sound coming off of the instrument should probably start at the source and get a sound from the instrument that they like.

But I don't think that's necessarily what's going on with the OP. Occasionally, when playing larger stages it would seem like my low end would just disappear when the mains were on. Like my playing area/vocal mic was stuck in a null, where low frequencies would just cancel out and would play harder trying to overcome it. Which is exactly what was going on. To fix this you have to move or eliminate the null. IEMs will almost certainly eliminate the issues. But if you're married to your amp, you can relocate your amp, delay the mains to the back line, reduce the lows coming out of you amp. Talk to your FoH person and see if they can make any suggestions. Mind you, if this is a series of one off throw and go shows, time would be the limiting factor in trying to fix the issue.

 

[ga_edwards]

This is a situation where modern modellers are a great solution. As the OP has discovered, taking a PRE DI signal from his amp sounds sterile. This is obviously because it's taking a direct signal before it hits the preamp and poweramp stage that make everything sound organic, gooey and lovely. If you switch this to post DI, you're getting the goodness of the preamp, but still no poweramp saturation or crucially, the sound of the speakers. You're also sending a carefully crafted eq for the immediate acoustic environment of the stage. This may not be ideal for the FOH.

With my Helix. I have a carefully dialled in amp model that doesn't change. This is "my sound", or ground zero as it were. I use a simple eq with hpf and lpf to simulate a cab (other people prefer to use a cab block - but that's a different discussion) and send this direct to FOH to do with what they need to. Generally, it's left alone or simply eq'd for the room.

I send a second signal to my on stage frfr monitor speaker. This has it's own volume control and "global eq" that I use to compensate for the acoustic influences of the stage area. Neither of these affect the FOH sound.

This way I have a great sound on stage and FOH that's tailored for each. And I don't have to fiddle with individual amp eq setting. Just adjust the global eq and stage volume, and I'm done.

It's taken me many years to realise it, but modelling completely gets around the limitations of translating the great sound of your rig to FOH. I'm confident that I can turn up to any gig, and have a consistent tone that I'm happy with.

 

[40Hz]

On rare occasion you will experience a situation where are all of the factors that degrade your sound seem to work out by serendipity. When this occurs, enjoy it because it will not happen frequently.

An inconvenient truth if there ever was one.

However, long ago I gave up on the idea of having a really fat bass sound on stage. I find the clarity and focus is the most important thing

Yep. Something I think we all eventually realize and reluctantly come to resign ourselves to. It is what it is.

The natural environment is not sympathetic towards bassists.

 

[burgerdj]

I always ask FOH to take my direct from the Sansamp PBDDI - it is such an industry standard that I rarely get any pushback. The Sansamp provides a great, consistent speaker emulated tone that sounds great on stage and though the mains. Before I had the SA, I’d try to sneak my DI signal post-eq, careful not to boost or cut too far and relying on the gain to get a signal with some character to it.

 

[ahbradot]

I tip the sound guy "before" the gig and that seems to workout nicely.

 

[MarMar]

I've used some "odd" amp settings for years. No one ever said anything about it except the one guitarist from my one band who tried to get me to buy a distortion pedal but couldn't explain why I needed one. My tone worked for my bands.

 

[foolforthecity]

Our band plays without IEM. We try to set up our gear without worrying about the FOH, instead we focus on achieving the same onstage sound we have when we’re playing a small gig. With rare exception, we all give the FOH guy pre-DI, pure old vanilla inputs into his system. Attempts at generating a tightly developed sound that makes me happy onstage may well be at odds with what the hall sounds like given the nature of its size, number of folks, physical acoustics, etc. I simply flip the old 800+ DI switch to PRE, get my onstage volume to sit nicely with the other guys so we’re all comfortable, then wait my turn for the sound guy to tell me what to do as he baselines the FOH. After that my worries stop. Why bother… as they say down this way, by this time “it’s all over but the crying”

 

[fishdude101101]

As someone who is somewhat of a control freak and also very picky about sound, I can certainly empathize . But I don't think I would have enjoyed the success I had as a professional musician if I did not learn to let go of my OCD tendencies somewhat. IMHO, the key to enjoying the gig is to control what you can, and let go of the rest. Of course, it helps if you can recognize the difference: In support of this, I have spent considerable time and energy learning about acoustics, sound system design, mixing strategies, etc. I have also done a fair amount of work as a pro audio tech, so I see the problem from two perspectives and have a good appreciation for the type of compromises that are required for success.

For me, elevating my cab and aiming it at my head helps me to hear better while reducing the amount of sound I am actually putting into the room. The idea is for my rig to fight less with the PA, while still punching through the mayhem on stage. When using this approach, my rig is solely for my stage monitoring needs. If another bandmember needs more bass, he/she askes the audio tech to add it to their monitor mix.

A typical touring rig for me was a 210 with about 250W. Not that it was a regular occurrence, but I have played huge outdoor fest stages with this sort of rig and it was usually plenty. I have also been on a few stages with massive side fills aimed back at the band. Note many bass amps can compete, and sometimes the best solution is to turn your amp down and smile as if you are having a great gig.

I also occasionally did gigs where my rig carried the room. I am more likely to put my cab on the floor under this circumstance, but it's not an automatic decision. If the room is boomy, I find it can still be beneficial to elevate my cab...and many performance venues are boomy.

The question 8ve always asked but never gotten a good answer for why bass players have to go pre eq but guitar players get freedom to send any crap down the line they want?


Whenever I'm forced to send pre, it always sounds like crap when I have the ability to go out front and check.

The DI should have no impact on the sound that comes from your rig. Any degradation you are getting should be coming from other sound sources that are using your signal.

I generally do not like having my bass added to my monitor mix. Frequently this creates the sensation that the monitors are fighting with my rig, rather than working with it. In actuality, they sort of are fighting because the problem is destructive interference called comb filtering. Comb filter occurs when you hear the same sound coming from two or more different sources, and the arrival time of the sound from each source is different.


Part of the problem is the different distances from your ears to each cab, and part of may be the difference in how your bass cab and the monitors are tuned. If you used identical cabs for your rig and the monitors, you would get the best sound by spacing them so they are equidistant from you head. The idea is so the sound from each source arrives at your ears at exactly the same time. When the spacing is not equal, the sound from each cab arrives at your ears at a different time which results in phase variances between the two signals. At frequencies where the signals arrive in phase they add, and at the frequencies where the signals arrive out of phase they cancel.

When you have reflex designs with significantly different tunings, you have another type of phase variance. Each tuning will have somewhat unique phase shift and group delay characteristics in the frequency band where the port is active. So even if the different cabs are equidistant from your ears, they may fight around the port tuning frequency. This can create a perception that the sound is hollow. or lacks power and focus.

I recommend some degree of compartmentalization. Worry primarily about your stage sound, and avoid trying to maintain 100% control over how you sound out in the house.

The reason, IMHO your sound needs to be processed for intended use and location. The sound you desire on stage will change as it travels out into the audience. In other words, the great sound you get on stage will not sound the same out in the audience. If your amp is pushing the room, it's fairly typical for the group leader to go out in the house during sound check to call tone changes back to you on stage. The idea is some degree of priority is given to making you sound good to the audience, and this process can degrade the quality of sound you are getting on stage.

Also, the tone and amount of compression you find ideal on stage for your monitoring purpose may not work well in the house mix. In order to do the job, the audio tech requires some degree of artistic freedom to shape all of the sound sources in a way that allows him/her to build a good sounding mix. Ideally the audio tech should have a clear idea of what sort of sound you are going for. The end result should be in the same ball park, but it's really not reasonable to expect it to be exactly the same as the sound you hear on stage.

The reality is it can be difficult if not impossible to deliver a really good bass sound to the audience. In my experience the quality of the bass tends to vary significantly from one gig site to the next. This is just the nature of the beast. Having great gear does improve the quality, but cannot eliminate all of the problems that degrade your sound. To some degree the most important thing is to recognize the limits of what can be achieved and adjust your expectations accordingly. Focus less on having perfect sound and more on making perfect music. IMHO great musicians anticipate this problem and work through it.

On rare occasion you will experience a situation where are all of the factors that degrade your sound seem to work out by serendipity. When this occurs, enjoy it because it will not happen frequently. Try not to draw any premature conclusions from the experience. For example, if you are playing a backline rig that it new to you, don't assume the rig is solely responsible for the great sound. It's likely that if you use the same rig at a different performance venue that the sound will be totally different. I.E. the rig may have little if anything to do with having great sound on a given gig.

Sorry I know this is probably not what you wanted. But it is, unfortunately how things work IMHO.

My approach as a bassist: My preference is more towards full-range, flat-response. However, long ago I gave up on the idea of having a really fat bass sound on stage. I find the clarity and focus is the most important thing I am looking for, and cranking up the lows beyond a certain level tends to cause masking that degrades the clarity and focus in the mids and highs.

My approach is typically to elevate my cab and tilt it back to aim at my head. The dispersion of a bass cab will change with the frequency. At low frequencies the cab is essentially omnidirectional. As the frequency goes up, the cab will start to force more and more of the sound out front. At higher frequencies the sound from one cone drive will form into a cone shaped beam. If the cab is flat on the floor, this beam of sound will shout out way below your ears, so you won't hear it.

Elevating the cab reduces the lows and puts a notch in the low mids related to the height of the cab. Tilting the cab back to aim at your head ensures you hear the full range of the direct sound coming from the cab. If you prefer clear articulate sound, I suggest trying this approach. However, if you like big fat lows, you probably won't like it.

So the same old question for me is why are bass players forced to send pre-eq signals when guitar players are allowed to send any crap down the wire that they want?

My solution these days is to send them a pre-eq send from my head (or their DI) but we a preamp pedal in the signal path just prevent a certain type of bass tone. Basically I put a big notch in the upper mids so that they can never give me the Billy Sheehan, Steve Harris type of sound. I'd rather not be heard that have the tone, and I have a bad habit of running into sound guys who love that sound, even after I explain that I hate that type of tone.

Now I'm not bad to work with, I don't change my gain structure during the show or touch my amp eq, and if they insist on pre-eq and no preamp pedal inline I'll go along with it if they are the house guy. If I'm paying the sound bill though they will take what I want to send down the wire.

To the OP the truth is, the pre-eq sound of most basses leaves a lot to be desired, in my opinion. Also I could never hope to get the sound I wanted out of a 2x10. Just not gonna cut it.

 

[fishdude101101]

Any pro level mixing desk has as much eq as a bass amp will have, and any modern digital one has massively more. Any EQ you apply can be unapplied easier at the desk. The only thing that MAY not be undoable is overdrive but they may just cut your mids and treble to get rid of it if that's what they want to do.
A mic will also apply it's own eq to the amp as very few are flat.

My solution is to use a preamp pedal in my singal path to keep hi-mids out of the front of house since most FOH engineers won't work with me on that, I remove enough of it that its almost impossible to put back in.

 

[s0c9]

Playing on many stages, with acts in various genres, and sound engineers of all levels, I also have to deal with a poopie sound in the FOH, and monitors when I rarely get some there. It's not that sound engineers always make a bad sound, but they far too often make a sound that is out of character with the style of music being played.

I also often experience that they A use their own DI or take a line put from whatever amp I'm using, where they always make sure that the get the PRE signal (sigh).

The reason FOH want a PRE signal is because bassists are [almost] as bad as guitar players at tweaking their amp onstage. If I take a POST signal any tonal changes you make up on stage (where you really have NO idea what things sound like out front) impact what I have set up to work in the room and fit with the band. The "perception" from hearing it on stage may be that is "out of character with the style of music being played", but sometimes that's what the room requires! Walking out front to listen to it during sound check in an empty room, really doesn't help much.. it's a rough guess!

Straight DI won't sound exciting in the PA. I'm a sound person as well and I don't like using mics on bass rigs personally, but my DI I send to the PA is post SansAmp. I'd suggest getting an amp simulation pedal, like the one I have (there's a lot of options these days) and sending that to the PA. Don't let the sound person take your dry signal. If they won't take the XLR out, give them the colored 1/4" out from your DI (not the bypassed or direct out).

However, in this scenario you should be sure that you're sending the sound person something that they can work with.

I'm not a pro FOH guy (as in making it my living.. gave that up long ago) but have been playing both sides of the stage (guitar/bass) for many, many years. I want a PRE bass signal sent to me so any stage-side tweaking does not impact the mix I have set up. I have enough going on out front and don't need to worry about changing input signals!
I'll also take a POST signal if I know the bassist and KNOW they won't mess with their settings every 30 seconds! I learnt long ago that when FOH is provided, there's a level of control of one's tone that you relinquish to FOH. As long as one is comfortable with the stage sound, don't worry about FOH. The OP believes it's the DI.. Nope, it's got nothing to do with the DI, if you are not using IEM's, it's the boom you hear from the boomy subs LF reflected back at you minus all the definition/clarity that you put into it. It's usually there in my mix, you just can't hear it up on the stage!

The "simple" solution is to go IEM and run your own mix and let FOH do FOH! That way it won't bother you!
My $0.02

 

[harleybass]

Sorry crazyBass clown if your struggling that I’m playing harder when the DI is plugged in.It’s very real ,I play with a pick and at the end of the show there is pick dust from the fender heavy’s I use.for a lack of a better word my bass feels like it’s muffled .After many tours , spoken to many players and it’s a common topic of discussion.Alan Woody once told me F##ck those DI’s just give me 4 fridges and a mic.

 

[BassBrass]

Thus, hire someone who knows what they are doing and bring them with, or start with a mic because it will still be closer to what you hear as a player out of your amp than a DI. Yes, anyone can destroy a source, no fixing a person that doesn't listen. FWIW, I personally believe (through hard learned experience), you are always better off starting with what the musician is reacting to, and referencing in order to make their musical decisions.

On these pro stages, how far from your amp are you? All you are concerned with really is your stage sound. You could rig a small personal monitor that you hear attack and tone in or otherwise focus on live sound monitoring. It's Always compromised somewhat (except concerts in your own home theatre). A 57 mic while a very versatile thing and a miracle on vocals and snare drum and serviceable on guitar at low sound pressure-not super close to amp...a 57 aint gonna sound good for your amp unless you want to not hear any fundamental at all. (as a trumpet player, I Hate 57 mic., it sounds dank klanky for horns, the natural low mid is missing, but it does Cut. In a club setting that might be all you get. Use a full range mic, there are some wonderful tom tom drums that work full range high sound pressure,.

 

[SemiDriven]

I've got a 2-channel IEM mixer on my pedalboard so my own signal as well as a monitor mix goes in and I can balance the two as needed. Headphone extension cable runs up the length of my instrument cable (with some electrical tape) and I can plug the IEMs in right by my bass jack.

The "simple" solution is to go IEM and run your own mix and let FOH do FOH! That way it won't bother you!
My $0.02

For those of us who use IEM's either with or without cabs/monitors on stage, what are some pedalboard IEM mixer recommendations?

Appreciate OP's topic...this discussion is causing lightbulbs to turn on in my head.