DI and Mic theorys ? Help

[dropbass]

ForGive if this has been covered and send me links please. ..I get the basic reasons for direct input. But if I have a say a b-15 tube amp or insert any amp cab at all... I want and like the sound of my speakers and head. And effects or whatever .. Why would I not want that reproduced live via a mic.. vs a di ?

 

[TimmyP]

Your rig is likely plenty loud, at least in some narrow frequency range. The DI provides deeper lows than any bass cab, and has other advantages.

 

[Floyd Eye]

I use a mic. A lot of guys use a mic and a DI feed. The DI for the lows and the mic for the tone and or dirt.

 

[dropbass]

Just feel there is no personal tone. .. You cant tell me of you had say a pbass. And b15. And an svt 410 w solid state that is two very different sounds with the same bass.... But my same p bass plugged to a di using either rig at the same pa will sound the same correct?. .. ..if all you are mainly hearing is flat cheap club. di from random sound guy thru random pa... yes ill have more low end but can the subs repro my cab tone and lows....and yes i can get my sams amp or tone bone..di but that is like running two seperate amps imo. Every guitar player mikes the amp they use because it is the way they make their tone..a tiny fender champ miked thru a monster pa system would no doubt soumd amazing. And Have low end due to the pa subs etc..... unless you bring a half stack for a 50 person club they are miked... we don't seem to the same luxury. I guess I see the conveince for the sound guy..but don't get the logic at same time...

 

[AndyLES]

Soundmen typically prefer using DIs for two reasons.

1) The low end frequencies, live, are typically difficult to deal with. Many players also set their amps in such a way that helps them hear themselves, but which doesn't work well for the room acoustics, so the DI is typically taken pre-EQ to allow the soundman to tailor the sound for the PA/venue while the player is free to set the amp however he/she feels (within reason, of course).

2) Mics, especially in a loud rock/pop context, introduce bleed, which may not be too big a deal for treble instruments but often wrecks havoc in the lower freq. and robs the sub amps of valuable headroom.

Of course, there are advantages to the mic, which is why SKILLED (emphasis mine) soundmen often use both, especially on big tours/stages. Be careful though with phase/polarity mismatching, though - if you don't know what you're doing, the mic/DI combination may actually make the sound thinner.

 

[Nephilymbass]

In the studio I use both and will also live if given the opportunity but if I have to pick one or the other I choose the xlr

Live When i cant do both i run an xlr from a sans amp rbi which sends the pa a full range tone. My cab is an ampeg classic 410he (i previously used an 810e for 10 years prior, both cabs are sealed design) I like this combination of xlr and a sealed cab because I can send a full range tone to the pa and have a cab specifically chosen for its onstage sound. For me the issue with ported cabs on most of the stages I play is when your on a stage where you can hear the pa subs even a little the bass becomes a mudfest. You get so much 100hz and below it results in a really muddy stage sound that makes it harder for me to hear myself. For me using ported cabs was also an issue because what happens is you cut lows to get a tighter sound which for one makes your xlr tone thin, but also because some of the lows in a ported cab are coming from the ports which don't have a mic on them, your mic signal sounds thin also. So in my opinion people shopping for a cab that goes below 40hz are wasting their time and will actually end up with a thinner tone in the pa.

Now as far as using both. I specifically like to use a mic to emphasize certain frequencies and add that airy live vibe that you don't really get from a xlr signal. My favorite mic to use is a regular (not a beta) shure 58 vocal mic. This particular mic is good to emphasize mids as opposed to using a kick drum mic or something that will emphasize more lows. I like the mix of the 58 and my xlr because it adds more mid character to my xlr tone which already has plenty of low end.

As far as using a dry DI to FOH. I normally avoid those venues but there are exceptions. Particularly when the bass is "processed" at the Board. There's one venue in particular about an hour away from me that does this and the first show when I got there to set up and found out all the bass players were running a dry DI I was bummed out. But when the bands played all the bass players sounded good. Turned out the deal was the soundguy had a sans amp at the board that he ran all the bass players through. In all honesty if I was a sound guy I would do exactly that because it solves the bass player with a crappy rig issue. Obviously its not going to make a $200 bass sound like $2000 bass but at least you wouldn't have to get a sub par xlr signal or a mic signal from an amp that's working to hard and sounds like crap.

 

[JimmyM]

I had to be dragged kicking and screaming into using a DI again because the mic was so superior for the sound I wanted. But the only way I could enjoy having a DI was to buy an A-Designs REDDI, which sounds pretty much identical to DI'ing a B-15 from the speaker out and running it clean. If not for that, I'd still be trying to mic and I'd still be arguing with unfamiliar soundmen who have no clue how dopey their irrational fear of micing is. Many soundmen used my mic and loved it. A few really pitched a fit for no good reason.

But here's something that all bassists who love using a mic need to know...it's a DI world for bass. Don't bother questioning it...it does no good. More progressive (and talented) soundmen love seeing someone bring in a vintage B-15 with an excellent mic. Not all of them are that progressive. And in the case of multi-band shows, there really isn't time to argue with soundmen during changeovers and speed is the name of the game, so unless you make friends with the soundman in advance and send a stage plot and input list and he agrees to it, you're getting a DI line.

So it's best to prepare for that eventuality by making your input into the DI as palatable as you can. I went with a tube amp disguised as a DI, but there are cheaper solutions as well. The cheaper solutions aren't quite as dramatically good as the REDDI but they're certainly better than that $50 DI you're going to get thrown at you.

 

[TimmyP]

A few weeks ago I heard player on whom I'd want a mic in addition to a DI. Hasn't happened in - well, in forever perhaps.

 

[runmikeyrun]

I've almost always played with some sort of distortion, so a DI just doesn't work for me. In my younger years (20s) I used to request a mic all the time, to which I'd get the usual soundguy frown and "I don't use a mic on bass" reply. I'd have to crank my amp to try to get some semblence of my tone out to the crowd. As I've aged it seems like soundguys somehow give me more respect, like i'm not a stupid kid just asking for a mic. I haven't been denied a request for a mic in probably 5 or 6 years running. It's strange.

 

[KeithAlanK]

As a pro soundman, what I tell all bands for FYI, and preach as gospel with every member of the bands I play in, is to present the soundman with a system that makes you AND them happy.

Knowing that a DI is preferred on multiband shows and by wanker soundmen, get yourself a preamp with XLR out that delivers YOUR tone out front. I can assure you, we LOVE this.
Our soundman tonight was jazzed that one cable into my tube preamp worked beautifully.
There are inexpensive ways to replicate your tone if you shop the active (and tube) DI's out there. Maybe patch it into the EFX loop if available.

If you simply MUST be mic'd, shop for a decent large diaphragm condenser that translates what you want the audience to hear and for God's sake bring your own stand that's perfect for the job, and maybe a small tube pre like ART's that'll send it phantom power and let you bring the level up to where the engineer wants it to be.

Take the work out of it, and NO soundman will object to merely plugging in an XLR cable.
Trust me on this.

Usually, we've run out of mics and stands and are tired of mic'ing crappy sounding amps and farty speakers.
Get your act together, and present an intelligent and elegant solution.

 

[dropbass]

As a pro soundman, what I tell all bands for FYI, and preach as gospel with every member of the bands I play in, is to present the soundman with a system that makes you AND them happy.

Knowing that a DI is preferred on multiband shows and by wanker soundmen, get yourself a preamp with XLR out that delivers YOUR tone out front. I can assure you, we LOVE this.
Our soundman tonight was jazzed that one cable into my tube preamp worked beautifully.
There are inexpensive ways to replicate your tone if you shop the active (and tube) DI's out there. Maybe patch it into the EFX loop if available.

If you simply MUST be mic'd, shop for a decent large diaphragm condenser that translates what you want the audience to hear and for God's sake bring your own stand that's perfect for the job, and maybe a small tube pre like ART's that'll send it phantom power and let you bring the level up to where the engineer wants it to be.

Take the work out of it, and NO soundman will object to merely plugging in an XLR cable.
Trust me on this.

Usually, we've run out of mics and stands and are tired of mic'ing crappy sounding amps and farty speakers.
Get your act together, and present an intelligent and elegant solution.

Take the work out of it? Are you kidding? their job is to RUN SOUND..for the band on stage. if I wany my ****** blown ass amp miked. Mic that bizzz. Maybe thats the sound i want or use. Ask me?... Shall I just run the sound as well and the drummer should bring thier selected choice mics with them .and the acoustic guitarist should bring two choice consdensers and a di and extra stands? Should I run All the cables and do a line check as well? Is is such a huuuge deal To have an extra sm57 or kick drum mic or a half way decent di you could even leave racked and run an xlr to the desk so it never gets stepped on? and a 25 dollar mini mic stand or an extra rare 20dollar reg dollar boom made of gilden unicorns horn. They do go all the way to the floor hmm weird....

 

[georgestrings]

A few weeks ago I heard player on whom I'd want a mic in addition to a DI. Hasn't happened in - well, in forever perhaps.

Yeah, I don't think you have alot of credibility on the matter:

"The best bass sounds I've heard were from folks who had no amp, a single 12" or 10", or used their wedge."

"Unless the PA is pretty crummy (and/or has no subs) it should sound better than any bass rig you've heard."

...and, my favorite pearl of wisdom from you:

"I can pretty much count on one hand the times I've heard a really good bass sound. Only once was a meaningful percentage of it coming from the amp. Most of the time, the amp's volume out front does not make a good sound, it prevents it."

Honestly, I don't know why you even bother to post on a bass forum, since it's obvious that you don't like the sound of electric bass guitar... I just feel sorry for the bassists that have the misfortune to work with you...


- georgestrings

 

[stonewall]

To me it doesnt matter mic or di.A great sound man will make either sound good a bad soundman will make both sound bad...PS im living the dream i do our band sound.Very rare anyone does our sound we always volunteer our PA lol.. When someone else does do our sound it bothers me that once im set up and doing my personal sound check he never come to stage and listen to my sound so they can do there best to reproduce it.

 

[jimfist]

Get your act together, and present an intelligent and elegant solution.

+1

Cabinet and amplifier emulators are here to stay, and more and more players are starting to catch on to the fact that they can capture the tone from the bass head and/or cabinet of their choice, virtually, to feed FOH via direct line.

So it's best to prepare for that eventuality by making your input into the DI as palatable as you can. I went with a tube amp disguised as a DI, but there are cheaper solutions as well. The cheaper solutions aren't quite as dramatically good as the REDDI but they're certainly better than that $50 DI you're going to get thrown at you.

There are lots of ways to go about this, and lots of products available (various levels of cost and quality) that can do this:

- Hughes & Kettner RedBox 5
- Sans Amp (many products)
- Zoom stomps (MS60B @ $99US is a cool piece)
- Boss, Line6, Digitech, et al
- 2 Notes Torpedo C.A.B.
- Fractal Audio Systems AxeFx (high end, overkill for most, but an extremely full-featured, comprehensive audio tool)

I've been exclusively feeding FOH a direct line with amp/cab emulation (which matches the feed to my on stage bass rig) for quite a few years now, and I never have a problem with the FOH mixer being able to get a good representation of my bass tone. The bigger the stage, and the more comprehensive the PA system/monitors, the more effective and desirable this is. Knowing that you can sound like you want via direct feed in mains/monitors, consistently from show to show, is a good thing, and without arguments from FOH guys about needing a mic. YMMV.

FWIW...JMHO

 

[TimmyP]

Yeah, I don't think you have alot of credibility on the matter:

"The best bass sounds I've heard were from folks who had no amp, a single 12" or 10", or used their wedge."

"Unless the PA is pretty crummy (and/or has no subs) it should sound better than any bass rig you've heard."

...and, my favorite pearl of wisdom from you:

"I can pretty much count on one hand the times I've heard a really good bass sound. Only once was a meaningful percentage of it coming from the amp. Most of the time, the amp's volume out front does not make a good sound, it prevents it."

Honestly, I don't know why you even bother to post on a bass forum, since it's obvious that you don't like the sound of electric bass guitar... I just feel sorry for the bassists that have the misfortune to work with you...


- georgestrings

I love the sound of electric bass - when it's good. It's not often that I hear a sound that's of any real merit. There's most always something that's way out of balance, especially out in the room.

 

[Ender_rpm]

I love the sound of electric bass - when it's good. It's not often that I hear a sound that's of any real merit. There's most always something that's way out of balance, especially out in the room.

But what you consider out of balance may be exactly what the player is going for. Which begs the question: Who's "vision" is more important, the player or the FOH guy?

 

[P-oddz]

I've found that since I purchased my own mic and stand - 99% of the places we've played are willing to take that line (some even enthusiastically since they may have never worked with my specific mic before). Buying yourself a decent dynamic mic (I use the Heil PR40) and a little stand (I use the Zbar: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]) goes a long way.

I've found that a lot of the guys that do sound appreciate that I know what good gear is, I know what I'm talking about, and I make their job just a little bit easier for the night. Small price to pay to get the sound I want for the night.

 

[georgestrings]

I love the sound of electric bass - when it's good. It's not often that I hear a sound that's of any real merit. There's most always something that's way out of balance, especially out in the room.

Really - maybe someone should email all those bands you run sound for, and let them know your thoughts on this...


- georgestrings

 

[georgestrings]

But what you consider out of balance may be exactly what the player is going for. Which begs the question: Who's "vision" is more important, the player or the FOH guy?

+1...


- georgestrings

 

[kedo]

I'm sure glad I didn't know over the last 20 years that getting a good bass sound that works within the mix, satisfies the band, and pleases the paying audience was so difficult.