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di box connection

#21
It totally depends on the context of the gig. If you are the headlining act at a classy venue, then yes, there is a chance that a percentage of the audience will be there specifically to bask in your bass artistry. In that situation then your flanger or whatever is an important part of the show. And presumably at that level you are either running your own sound or have spent time with the soundguy discussing your mix. (A great way to do this is to give the sound guy a copy of your CD in advance of the gig and tip him a few $$ for his hard work and accommodations.)

If it's a 45 minute set at a dive bar battle-of-the-bands, then nobody is there to hear the flanger on your bass, they want to get drunk and have a good time. Plug into the stupid Countryman DI or whatever and make the people dance! :)
 
#22
Mushroo said:
Also remember that music isn't about being right all the time, or having the ballsiest tube sound. It's also about working/playing well with others, teamwork if you will. Trust me from experience that if you can get a good tone coming out of the bass, without extensive post-processing, that you will get compliments and gratitude from live soundmen, studio engineers, and fellow band members. You will develop a reputation that you are quick to set up, easy to work with, and that your sound is versatile and sits well in a mix.
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Hear hear! Keep it simple.

Speaking for myself - as a bass player I prefer a DI. As a soundguy I prefer a DI (from the bass, not the speaker out of an amp), but if someone wants a mic on their cab they can have it. If they want to use the line out of their favourite amp they can have that too, even if it is to their tone's detriment.

If they are nice about it they can have a nice mic. If their tone is less that pleasant, they don't ask nicely and they RAWK harder than I'd prefer, they can have a 57.

If their amp looks potentially problematic I push them towards a simple passive DI rather than the amp's built-in balanced out. If their gear is good and they have a clue they can have whatever makes them happy. I haven't come across many signals I can't work with.
 
#23
Mushroo said:
It totally depends on the context of the gig. If you are the headlining act at a classy venue, then yes, there is a chance that a percentage of the audience will be there specifically to bask in your bass artistry. In that situation then your flanger or whatever is an important part of the show. And presumably at that level you are either running your own sound or have spent time with the soundguy discussing your mix. (A great way to do this is to give the sound guy a copy of your CD in advance of the gig and tip him a few $$ for his hard work and accommodations.)

If it's a 45 minute set at a dive bar battle-of-the-bands, then nobody is there to hear the flanger on your bass, they want to get drunk and have a good time. Plug into the stupid Countryman DI or whatever and make the people dance! :)
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That's just sad. First off, it's sad that anyone would even consider doing a battle of the bands. They're always fixed, and they don't pay, and it's just a club's way of getting free entertainment from a bunch of different bands. Took me 3 of them to wise up when I was a kid, but I haven't done one since I was 19.

Second, it's sad that house soundmen on these gigs have such little respect for bands that they're going to make you use a cheap-ass $50 DI when you bring a REDDI or a real nice mic for your cab. A Countryman would be a grand step up for a lot of these soundmen. I don't know why it's so hard for those soundmen to have some respect for the bands they run sound for. Without them, the soundman has no job. Those poor kids work their asses off trying to get people to come to a club, get paid very little or not at all, and then they get treated like crap? Yeah, sign me up :rolleyes:
 
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#24
JimmyM said:
That's just sad. First off, it's sad that anyone would even consider doing a battle of the bands. They're always fixed, and they don't pay, and it's just a club's way of getting free entertainment from a bunch of different bands. Took me 3 of them to wise up when I was a kid, but I haven't done one since I was 19.

Second, it's sad that house soundmen on these gigs have such little respect for bands that they're going to make you use a cheap-ass $50 DI when you bring a REDDI or a real nice mic for your cab. A Countryman would be a grand step up for a lot of these soundmen. I don't know why it's so hard for those soundmen to have some respect for the bands they run sound for. Without them, the soundman has no job. Those poor kids work their asses off trying to get people to come to a club, get paid very little or not at all, and then they get treated like crap? Yeah, sign me up :rolleyes:
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I have to be honest, I always get along great with soundmen (I'm a bit of a nerd you see) and so I've never encountered the uncomfortable situation you describe. Knowing more details about the challenges you have faced, I now understand your point of view. Cheers. :)
 
#25
Mushroo said:
I have to be honest, I always get along great with soundmen (I'm a bit of a nerd you see) and so I've never encountered the uncomfortable situation you describe. Knowing more details about the challenges you have faced, I now understand your point of view. Cheers. :)
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And what's worse is that on 99% of my gigs, it's in our contract with soundmen that we are in full control of the sound and lighting. Yet I still got soundmen who refused to do things the way I wanted them, and they would resort to subterfuge and out and out sneakiness to get what they wanted. Even had a dude slip a mic cable in the back of my amp when I wasn't looking. Too bad for him I had the gain up really hot so it would distort ;) Half the reason I went for a REDDI. As of yet, no arguing over the REDDI, but I expect it any day.
 
#27
Similarities between a soundman and a cable:
1. They're both there to get your sound from one place to another

Differences between a soundman and a cable:
1. When a cable changes your sound, it's considered a Bad Thing (tm)
2. Cables don't have opinions

If you are creating bad sound, then you deserve the audience's negative reaction to it. It should be a learning experience, soundmen should allow it to happen.

Why should experienced musicians be penalized because some beginners are lower on the learning curve?
 
#28
I don't disagree with that, Mike. Another possibility is that maybe the soundman's preconceptions see that sound as a bad thing but the band loves it and it's part of their signature sound. Look how many soundmen and producers dumped on Entwistle over the years, and he was as famous as it gets!
 
#31
But, we were about to have delicious cake.

As I've stated somewhere around here, at some point...
as a soundfella, I do not deserve praise for doing the job. It's the job.

Some jackass promoter piled on 10 bands today (it was a 6 band show)
45 minute sets are for the big boys. You openers are getting what's starting to look like 25 minute sets.
I've run fantails to each side, keeping a basic drum riser mic setup, and 57s across the front for cabs.
You brought a DI. Maybe it's a reddiwhip di, maybe it's cheap ass di.
"could we use this?"
I unplug my mic, and plug in your DI, if it don't make buzzy groundnoise[unintentionally] we use it.
Oh, and...same story if you hand off your own mic..I reckon, it's your sound.
We just invented synergy.

It gets better.
We're in a hurry, so we linecheck. Get ya some monitors, get the show back on schedule. I mix towards a blend-I'm comfortable with / I'm familiar with.

I hit the AUTO-BLEND on my board and read penthouse letters until the house lights come up.

Live sound is Live production. The soundfella is determining what goes where in a mix. If the soundfella thinks all metal sounds like "DERJJ" and all hiphop sounds like "wappitywumpwump"...well, you Americana and C&W guys are probably in the clear...
Talking with bands, if I have not had a chance to listen to their tunes...it helps. Especially if we're talking about their music.

But people don't come out to the club where the soundguys are funniest. The ticket stub did not say "the amazing guy in the soundbooth who installed a fireman's pole instead of a ladder"

damn.
now I want a firepole to the soundbooth, and cake.
 
#33
Maybe I am, G. But I just don't get why bass players don't stick up for themselves more often, and wanting good sound the way you want it is perceived as the ultimate in being a jerkoff.
 
#34
Jimmy,

players do stick up for themselves when they refuse to turn down onstage...
We know that's rarely the right answer, but some of the comments here have pointed to a
"do as the engineer wants, or you'll be sorry"
Which is hardly a remedy.

an engineer knows the sound system dynamics, knows the room.
BUT they do not know your sound, and should not pretend that they are the purveyors of taste that the rest of the world has simply neglected to take notice of.
Find balance, or find the door.
 
#35
Well I'm never for blasting SPL's and screwing the house sound. But in all honesty, I have heard gigs where the band does just that and it sounds really good anyway.
 
#36
...aanyway, a 1/4" line out from an amp into a DI box can work just fine (the actual question from the OP).

sometimes it's even the problem-solver if the amp tone is part of the equation but the amp's XLR out is misbehaving; the external DI and its ground lift can sometimes save the day while still letting the bass player have a reasonable portion of his amp tone in the house.
 
#37
JimmyM said:
Maybe I am, G. But I just don't get why bass players don't stick up for themselves more often, and wanting good sound the way you want it is perceived as the ultimate in being a jerkoff.
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The thing is, it's just one of many variables at a live show, and I've been in situations where everyone "sticking up for himself" has turned what should have been a good gig into... well, something else. Putting on a show is a team effort and compromises frequently (make that always) have to be made. It may be a big deal for you if you don't get exactly the bass timbre you like FOH, but how important is it to the success of the gig? That should be the overriding consideration.

If you play a lot of gigs with house sound, you are obviously going to run into a range of situations, some better than others. If it's less than ideal you do the best you can and move on. The show's the thing and the show must go on.

But you know, there's no reason why you couldn't carry your own favorite mic and stand with you, and if the sound man hands you a DI you could just swap your mic for it (letting him know what you are doing, of course). A signal is a signal and as long as you don't send him out searching for gear when he's got 10 minutes setup time between bands, I daresay most if not all sound guys won't have a problem with it. If he does, then it just may be one of those compromises I was talking about. It's not the end of the world.

Platitudes: No "I" in "TEAM", look for the win-win, more flies with honey than with vinegar, blah blah blah...
 
#38
Rockin Mike said:
I don't think the question of who-pays-who should enter into it. The band is the product, that's what the audience came to hear, so everybody on the team from roadies to musicians to soundmen are all there to get that done. Everybody should be enabling the band's sound, not changing it.
Click to expand...

It really depends on the gig. In an arena concert situation, sure, but of course all that is worked out ahead of time, contracts are signed, riders are executed, etc., so it's not usually a problem.

At the other extreme, though, like at a bar gig with several bands playing 30 minute sets with 5 minute changeouts, not so much. The audience came to drink, and many of them don't even know or care who the bands are. Expediency in getting bands on and off the stage on time is an overriding concern, and any band who has not brought their own FOH guy gets the house guy's best shot at a moving target. Expecting things to be "just so" in a situation like that is unreasonable.

Most gigs are somewhere in the middle, and in those situations you get... something in the middle.

Railing against soundmen who know what the band wants to sound like and who then deliberately alter it to suit their own tastes is a straw man argument.
 
#39
I'm not going to get into the times I've been hoodwinked by a soundguy for wanting to use a mic. If you want to find it, I'm sure you can without effort. But I have 2 minutes left on my free internet at this airport ;)
 
#40
To play devil's advocate, if the soundman thinks a DI sounds better than a mic (which I happen to agree with) then their job is to make that judgment call. They know the room better than you, they know the equipment better than you, they know what the audience wants to hear. One thing I learned long ago is you can't mix front-of-house from on stage, you need to trust the soundman's ears and experience.

An analogy I'm sure we all have experienced is the guitarist who cranks the bass on his amp and crowds the bass player's sonic space. If "the guitarist is always right and the soundman's job is to do exactly what the guitarist says" then the mix will be crap; as bass players I'm sure we would all want the soundman to make the mixing decision that results in the best sound for the band even if that means a slight disappointment to the guitarist that the soundman has "messed with his tone." It's about compromising the sound of each instrument to get the best overall mix.

I haven't encountered these dastardly hoodwinking soundmen that you seem to come across all the time, in fact most of them tell me how good my tone is, how quickly I set up and get ready, and how easy I am to work with. Maybe it's because I don't give them attitude and tell them how to do their job? :)
 

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