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di box connection

#41
So,
a bassist comes to you with a specific mic and a Zbar...you _______.
I think that's the sticking point.

I'm running a line or two to bass already...I unplug house mic for their mic, or use their DI vs direct out of amp (or house DI).
I mix sound.
Win*

Wait!
nope, false alarm...


*or calculated retreat to the hills
 
#42
the Arsonaut said:
So,
a bassist comes to you with a specific mic and a Zbar...you _______.
I think that's the sticking point.

I'm running a line or two to bass already...I unplug house mic for their mic, or use their DI vs direct out of amp (or house DI).
I mix sound.
Win*

Wait!
nope, false alarm...


*or calculated retreat to the hills
Click to expand...

In this hypothetical scenario, is the bassist paying me?

If the bassist is paying, then I do whatever they tell me to. If I disagree with a suggestion then I voice my opinion respectfully, mindful of who's buttering my bread.

If the bassist is not paying (i.e. I work for the venue), then do we have time for a soundcheck? If yes, then we'll give your gear a try and switch if the results are bad. If there is no time for a soundcheck, then we use my gear which I know from everyday experience is reliable and sounds good, no fuss.

Note: I am not a sound guy in real life, this is purely hypothetical.
 
#44
If someone you've never met before in your life walks up to you 5 minutes before a gig holding a brand of bass you've never used and says, "here, play this instead, I think it sounds better than your (insert brand of your bass)" would you do it?

As with any other professional, the soundman's first priority is to satisfy his employer. His job and reputation are on the line.
 
#45
Mushroo said:
If someone you've never met before in your life walks up to you 5 minutes before a gig holding a [way of connecting your rig to the PA] you've never used and says, "here, play this instead, I think it sounds better than your [way of connecting your rig to the PA] would you do it?
Click to expand...
corrected for the actual situation, and my personal answer would be "no".

and on the other end, if i'm mixing a band that's anything above "some local dudes in shorts with their new guitar center purchases", then i'm approaching the bass player with a mic cable and asking "OK, where do you want this?", with the expectation that the bass player has his s**t together and will give me the right sound for whatever they're doing.
 
#46
Sorry, Mushroo...

two points off here...apples/oranges & shoe on wrong foot.

The "unknown bass" thing is kind of apples/oranges, in the sense that it's a personal player's choice; modded in all sorts of nuance. But hey, maybe it's the answer to all of my prayers, maybe this instrument is what I've been looking for-NO WAIT, IT'S A TRAP!

Maybe I'm reading into the Soundguy/employer relationship too much, but, are you telling me that everytime you snub a bass player, your boss is nodding in silent approval?
Your job and reputation revolve around a set cast of equipment, to deviate would cast you into possible financial oblivion?

How far does it go? I've got a couple of Procos, a couple of 85s...do I slap the keyboardist's proffered radial JDIs out of his hand? "My boss nods 'yes', sorry-SMACK!"

But let me put it in a certain way...By casting doubt onto someone's gear, am I doing my job by possibly making them less comfortable in my place of business? Is it that hard to trade the house DI for another model? Is a mic'd bass truly that abhorrent, if the bassist requests it?

I want the band to have a good time, so their fans have a good time.
My crew gets hired out by bands on the road, every once in awhile...they didn't get that job by warming up to the band in such a curious manner.

At the end of the day, that special mystery bass that your unnamed cohort offered me? Yes, I'm a bassist, I can play it...cut off three strings I'll make it thump.
 
#47
walterw said:
corrected for the actual situation, and my answer would be "no".
Click to expand...

Point taken, however, as I mentioned in a previous post, it's a dumb career move refusing to spend a few hours figuring out how to sound good through a DI box. A player of your caliber should be able to figure it out no problem, then you will be prepared for the inevitable situation you'll be asked to do so. :)
 
#48
the Arsonaut said:
Sorry, Mushroo...

two points off here...apples/oranges & shoe on wrong foot.

The "unknown bass" thing is kind of apples/oranges, in the sense that it's a personal player's choice; modded in all sorts of nuance. But hey, maybe it's the answer to all of my prayers, maybe this instrument is what I've been looking for-NO WAIT, IT'S A TRAP!

Maybe I'm reading into the Soundguy/employer relationship too much, but, are you telling me that everytime you snub a bass player, your boss is nodding in silent approval?
Your job and reputation revolve around a set cast of equipment, to deviate would cast you into possible financial oblivion?

How far does it go? I've got a couple of Procos, a couple of 85s...do I slap the keyboardist's proffered radial JDIs out of his hand? "My boss nods 'yes', sorry-SMACK!"

But let me put it in a certain way...By casting doubt onto someone's gear, am I doing my job by possibly making them less comfortable in my place of business? Is it that hard to trade the house DI for another model? Is a mic'd bass truly that abhorrent, if the bassist requests it?

I want the band to have a good time, so their fans have a good time.
My crew gets hired out by bands on the road, every once in awhile...they didn't get that job by warming up to the band in such a curious manner.

At the end of the day, that special mystery bass that your unnamed cohort offered me? Yes, I'm a bassist, I can play it...cut off three strings I'll make it thump.
Click to expand...

Cool, but you're an exception--I think most players would prefer their own bass and would feel some anxiety using a strange bass on a gig. (As an aside: this actually happened to me recently, I sat in and used the other guy's Warwick; they hang a little differently than the Fender-style I'm used to, and I found myself missing a lot of notes because the frets were shifted from where I expected t hem to be.) Likewise the soundguy has his own gear that he's comfortable using on a nightly basis. If he politely says "I am more confident I can make your band sound good with Gear X than Gear Y" are you are saying you attach no weight to that opinion whatsoever??
 
#49
Mushroo said:
Point taken, however, as I mentioned in a previous post, it's a dumb career move refusing to spend a few hours figuring out how to sound good through a DI box. A player of your caliber should be able to figure it out no problem, then you will be prepared for the inevitable situation you'll be asked to do so. :)
Click to expand...
my "caliber" is just a dude who plays and mixes in bars and clubs :p, but i really wouldn't dream of being arrogant enough to try and force somebody i was mixing to not use what they want to use.

(somebody who doesn't know the difference or really care, sure, i'll go with what i think is best, but the idea of arguing with the "artist" about his choice of "paintbrush" just seems wildly inappropriate.)

also, my own rig is just P-bass into sansamp, so it's easy to get it to sound great; as such, no, i'm not gonna be talked out of it.
 
#51
well that's a little different, taking a speaker-level signal (but doable with the right DI box like jazzdog mentions).

a "line out" or "preamp out" or "effects send" or sometimes even "tuner out" on the back of a bass amp is just gonna be a low-level signal, which any DI box can take.
 
#52
Mush, just remember that without those hypothetical bands you wish to force your hypothetical sonic opinions on, you wouldn't have the hypothetical person who signs your hypothetical checks signing your hypothetical checks, so a little hypothetical respect is in order, I do believe. And dude, I've been getting great sounds out of crap gear longer than most people on here, but I don't like it and don't wish to do it if I don't have to. If I show up to your hypothetical club with the rig and mic I use and you can't get it to sound good, it's your hypothetical incompetence, not mine. And if I show up to your hypothetical club with a REDDI and you insist on using some $50 POS DI, I'm going to take my REDDI and bat that POS DI out the door Babe Ruth style. Hypothetically of course.
 
#53
Mushroo said:
Likewise the soundguy has his own gear that he's comfortable using on a nightly basis. If he politely says "I am more confident I can make your band sound good with Gear X than Gear Y" are you are saying you attach no weight to that opinion whatsoever??
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but this is a hypothetical that's dealing with absolutes which I never proposed.
No one cares how polite you phrase it...I'm kidding, that's a great way of broaching the conversation, however-

What I said was, if a player comes to me with an amp, as in the OP's case, I've explained an option for capturing their sound.

I then countered your argument that players should (or must...eh) abide by the engineer's decision, by stating that it would be more reasonable to work with the performers and their requests. I said it, it's up there...


If I use JimmyM's band as an example...We have a contract, so let's pretend his tech rider states "kick: audix d6, snare: audix d2, etc, etc BASS: DI-provided by band"
I'm going to contact their TM or FOHguy about drums and state that I don't carry audix, I've got akg & shure...as long as it's equivalent, and we agree...we're golden.
All I'm going to ask, about bass, if I do, is whether that info is current..."does he have his own DI?..cool, now about these fresh lilacs and blue m&ms..."

Now, if he shows up, and his redDI falls out of the truck and breaks, I'll hand him a tissue, and we'll discuss further options. I wouldn't even dream of doing anything besides pointing out where I left the xlr for him. Anything else would point out my inability to read a technical rider.

So, that's a contractual obligation. ooOOooh.
But what about just working with the band?

or, to put this in a different light...
How the hell do you expect to learn about different microphones and equipment, if you choose not to use it? Do you think I've joined a secret society that has a warehouse of new and used equipment that I test out on women dressed up as scantily clad catholic school girls who are above the age of consent? Well, you're right. But we only use that stuff in the videos...
The real experience comes from 'winging it' in the field.

This ain't rocket science. The basic difference between my ruggedly handsome house DI and someone's expensive DI is basically signal:noise and frequency response. Wait, that's it?
 
#55
Mushroo said:
If he politely says "I am more confident I can make your band sound good with Gear X than Gear Y" are you are saying you attach no weight to that opinion whatsoever??
Click to expand...

I would assume I am dealing with an idiot, and I would be right.

On a scale of most difficult thing a soundman is ever going to have to deal with to easiest, a bass amp ranks as totally trivial.

Just about every band you mix is going to throw you some kind of a curve ball. Maybe it's the back up singer that absolutely needs 120dB of monitor so he can whisper his harmony vocals just right. Maybe it's the baritone ukulele with no pick up that needs to be louder than the Marshall stack in the backline. Maybe it's the massive percussion setup nobody warned you about.

Doesn't matter, you solve the problem. That's the job. If you are flummoxed by a bass amp you need to find another line of work.
 
#57
thumbknuckle said:
I would assume I am dealing with an idiot, and I would be right.

On a scale of most difficult thing a soundman is ever going to have to deal with to easiest, a bass amp ranks as totally trivial.

Just about every band you mix is going to throw you some kind of a curve ball. Maybe it's the back up singer that absolutely needs 120dB of monitor so he can whisper his harmony vocals just right. Maybe it's the baritone ukulele with no pick up that needs to be louder than the Marshall stack in the backline. Maybe it's the massive percussion setup nobody warned you about.

Doesn't matter, you solve the problem. That's the job. If you are flummoxed by a bass amp you need to find another line of work.
Click to expand...
Exactly. It ain't brain surgery, and if the player is more comfortable getting what he wants than having what he doesn't want forced upon him, it makes for a better show all around.

And the argument most often used by soundmen to get their way..."It doesn't matter"...well if it doesn't matter, then give me what I want!
 
#59
I do not understand where the notion started with soundmen that ALL bass guitars MUST use a DI in live PA. Is it because of DI use in the studio? I have heard more bad sounds from PA's because of the DI in a bass rig.

You can blame a bad bass/amp/cables (and maybe rightfully so), but if one was to use a mic 90% of that noise could be eliminated.

With DI, all the bass (rigs) start to sound the same. Also, as in my case, I bring different rigs to different gigs and really don't feel like bothering searching for "where's that hum coming from?" when I can just put a mic up and go right to level checks.

Same for my stage volume. I don't mind the occasional request for a level change, but can't stand it when initial checks result in "your too loud, turn it down" and I can't even hear/feel myself over the drummer. It's like they want me at a 10 Watt bedroom practice level! Sound guys just need to let go of the idea of having 100% control of the sound (it's sound reinforcement, not sound control)... especially in small clubs. The monitor mix tone they send back to me is not my tone.

And if I want to use my well cared for vintage or a brand new mic (or DI) instead of the beaten/dropped and otherwise abused house equipment offered whats the big deal? How difficult is that really going to make their ability to get a good mix? How long do they spend on bass guitar normally... 20-30 seconds?
 
#60
RobbieNuke said:
I do not understand where the notion started with soundmen that ALL bass guitars MUST use a DI in live PA.
Click to expand...


Soundmen have opinions based on their experience, just like bass players. I prefer certain equipment to do my job, so I can only assume that experienced sound men prefer certain equipment to do their job. FYI there is a fundamental physical difference between how a mic and DI capture sound, it is not an arbitrary/random distinction.
 

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