Did Fender change their P pickups between 62 and 77?

[narud]

65-69 or so have the whatever wire that is on the picture going on. The wire on my 62 looks just like the picture of the 70s pickup you posted(I posted a picture in a thread somewhere). All the other pre CBS pickups I've seen have looked just like mine. I've read speculation that all the 70s stuff that looks like plain enamel is poly.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

Fender stopped using Formvar starting in 1964, and then switched to plain enamel.

So your '62 should have formvar, unless they weren't using formvar on the bass pickups. And the '65 in the photos I posted should have plain enamel, but they don't. It looks like formvar.

The '76 in my photo is plain enamel. I had that set in for a rewind. It definitely wasn't poly, because plain enamel has a certain smell. It smells like benzine (think of the old Magic Markers). This is one reason the wire manufactures stopped using it. Plus the insulation gets brittle.

Gibson, on the other hand, has recently been reputed to use poly that's dyed to look like plain enamel. But back in the day there was nothing special about plain enamel wire, it was just the way it was. People stopped using it as more durable insulation because available.

Personally I see little point in using the stuff. I keep some on hand for rewinds (like with the '76 set), but it's expensive and doesn't really sound different IMO.

 

[narud]

Fender stopped using Formvar starting in 1964, and then switched to plain enamel.

So your '62 should have formvar, unless they weren't using formvar on the bass pickups. And the '65 in the photos I posted should have plain enamel, but they don't. It looks like formvar.

The '76 in my photo is plain enamel. I had that set in for a rewind. It definitely wasn't poly, because plain enamel has a certain smell. It smells like benzine (think of the old Magic Markers). This is one reason the wire manufactures stopped using it. Plus the insulation gets brittle.

Gibson, on the other hand, has recently been reputed to use poly that's dyed to look like plain enamel. But back in the day there was nothing special about plain enamel wire, it was just the way it was. People stopped using it as more durable insulation because available.

Personally I see little point in using the stuff. I keep some on hand for rewinds (like with the '76 set), but it's expensive and doesn't really sound different IMO.

the bass pickups and teles were plain enamel in pre cbs years (65 isnt)
heres my 62 jazz

and another tbrs 64 p bass

theres that widely cited website with all the fender info which generally states "fender stopped using heavy formvar after 64" but doesnt get into specifics. duncan has has always used plain enamel for the vintage fender type bass pickups. i think fralin was the first winder to come out with that jazz bass set saying they were like a pre cbs pickup wound with heavy formvar and wound up to 8.5k and wax potted, all of which are wrong.

fwiw, none of the 70's sets ive pickups ive had have really had any smell left. the rewinds ive gotten that are accurate have all smelled like solvent from the lacquer thats sprayed on the outside of the coil.

 

[sven kalmar]

thanks for nice pics and interesting stuff, guys.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

fwiw, none of the 70's sets ive pickups ive had have really had any smell left. the rewinds ive gotten that are accurate have all smelled like solvent from the lacquer thats sprayed on the outside of the coil.

I just removed the wire off a DeArmond Rhythm Chief pickup from the 1950s for a rewind, and you can smell the wire very easily. I also have plain enamel off an old Rick pickup here that you can also smell.

But your pickups do look like plain enamel. The wire off the '76 set didn't smell as strong.

Lacquer doesn't smell like plain enamel. For lacquer to dry, all the solvent has to evaporate. They actually dipped the bobbins in lacquer, not sprayed them. This was to insulate the magnets. So the lacquer had to be dry before they wound the pickups.

Clearly Fender used what ever wire they could get at the time. Gibson was similar with pickup parts.

I agree with you about the 8k+ pickups. That's way out of spec. I said that way back in that other thread, and also said no one was using 43 gauge wire, which I think you were saying Nordstrand was. I weighed vintage pickups on a digital scale, and then used to as a guide to determine how much wire was on them. When wound to proper specs they are between 6-7k and the same weight. I also used your sound clips as a guide and matched that.

I think the heavy formvar thing is based on old Strat pickups. Teles never used it, and I haven't seen any bass pickups using it. I have seen bass pickups with what appears to be bondable wire, or single build formvar, such as that '65 Jazz set.

In the end it only matters for maybe dating the pickups, or doing restorations. it's not that important to the tone.

Here's a good thread on it:

Invalid Link Removed

 

[big_teee]

This is an old thread but looks like a good place to put this.
I have a 66/68? P-bass pickup set in my shop to be rewound.
They have gray flatwork, 42 HFV wire with cloth hookup wire.
Thought someone might like to see the pictures before I rewind them.
One Coil plainly says 66, the other is either a 66, or maybe a 68.
The flatwork is warped and I will probably totally disassemble them to straighten it, before winding.
T

 

[big_teee]

Here's some more pics of the 66 rewind process.
Both coils were open, and no continuity from either lead to any magnet.
Because of the bad flaring I tore them down and straightened everything best I could.
I wound them back with a -5% wind, or 9500 turns of 42 HFV per coil.
They read about 5300 ohms DCR per coil.
Here are pics before I pot and assemble.
Note, I did minimal cleaning on flatwork, and covers per shop owners instructions.
He wants them to look old.
I included the wiring layout.
All 60s and 70s that I have rewound with a brass baseplate, have been wired this way.
On new P pickups, I wire them a bit different, but on rewinds I always go back, like I took them a part.

 

[big_teee]

Here's the last post and pics of the 66 P-bass rewind.
I have them Potted and assembled.
If they were mine I would clean and scrub the covers some, and I will leave that to the shop owner.
He likes that old look with vintage patina on parts.
I tried to take plenty of pics, since the pickups are nearly 50 years old.
Someone might want to try and duplicate this like they did in days of old.
Finished Ohms DCR turned out in the 10.5-10.6K range.
Hope you enjoyed looking at the Pics?
Terry K.