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Difference between modes and scales?
- Thread starter Tupac
- Start date
I'm not sure I understand the question. For C (You said scale I think you mean the key) the Ionian mode is just the first position. Dorian mode would be the second mode and etc. Each mode would still fit in the key you are playing. Hope that is helpful.
I should add there are a lot of threads dealing with modes and theory. Good luck.
I should add there are a lot of threads dealing with modes and theory. Good luck.
Scales are modes and modes are scales. So what's the difference? Read on...
A scale or a mode is just a pattern of tone and semitone steps. Each pattern has a name of its own.
Two scales are modes of each other if they contain the same notes but in a different order. For example, the Ionian mode (our normal major scale) has the pattern of tones and semitones TTSTTTS. Starting on C, this gives. CDEFGABC.
Now use the same notes and start on, say, A. So, ABCDEFGA. The pattern is different now - TSTTSTT. This pattern is called the Aeolian mode or natural minor scale. There are others too - you can look them up easily enough.
The two scales given are modes of each other because they contain the same notes, but in a different order. But the A major scale, for example, contains some different notes (F#, C# and G#) so it's a different scale to the other two and not a mode of either.
The different names are just ways of referring to the different patterns of notes. Sometimes it helps to think about major and minor scales, at other times it's useful to think of them as modes. The thread linked below may help if you're still wanting to learn more.
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f22/bassy-bills-beginners-basic-guide-scales-modes-631295/
A scale or a mode is just a pattern of tone and semitone steps. Each pattern has a name of its own.
Two scales are modes of each other if they contain the same notes but in a different order. For example, the Ionian mode (our normal major scale) has the pattern of tones and semitones TTSTTTS. Starting on C, this gives. CDEFGABC.
Now use the same notes and start on, say, A. So, ABCDEFGA. The pattern is different now - TSTTSTT. This pattern is called the Aeolian mode or natural minor scale. There are others too - you can look them up easily enough.
The two scales given are modes of each other because they contain the same notes, but in a different order. But the A major scale, for example, contains some different notes (F#, C# and G#) so it's a different scale to the other two and not a mode of either.
The different names are just ways of referring to the different patterns of notes. Sometimes it helps to think about major and minor scales, at other times it's useful to think of them as modes. The thread linked below may help if you're still wanting to learn more.
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f22/bassy-bills-beginners-basic-guide-scales-modes-631295/
Groove Master
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For me the best way to know about modes and scales is trough harmonic analysis.
A Cmaj is a possible Ionian or Lydian mode. Only harmonic analysis will tell you when the C maj is a I or a IV of a key center. Same thing with a Amin chord. This one can be a lot of choices but only harmonic analysis will tell you what it is or what choices are possible.
Learning harmonic analysis is the key to understand what is going on under the hood
^Yes. Here's another way to look at things: don't think of modes, think of what modal music is. For example, let's say you have a tune in D minor and the melody is based on a simple D natural minor scale: D E F G A Bb C. Now let's take another tune where the tonic is D minor, but the melody is based on D dorian scale: D E F G A B C.
The first tune is in D natural minor and the second tune is in D dorian. The tonic chord is D minor in both cases, but the scale one chooses is based on the function of the D minor chord. In the first case, is is i of natural minor and in the second case it is D dorian (which is derived from the ii chord of C Major).
The first tune is in D natural minor and the second tune is in D dorian. The tonic chord is D minor in both cases, but the scale one chooses is based on the function of the D minor chord. In the first case, is is i of natural minor and in the second case it is D dorian (which is derived from the ii chord of C Major).
Wars have been fought on the subject of a mode being a scale - or not. I'll not get into that because I think the important thing about modes is knowing how, and when, to use them in the music we play. I really do not care if you call it a mode of a scale or think of it as a specific scale.
Scott Devine in his video on how to practice modes does a very good job of showing us how we can make each mode and then I think more important how and when to use them in the music we play. He touches on both relative modes and parallel modes. With Relative modes the key changes and the notes stay the same. This is an easy way to teach modes and is probably the method you learned first. With Parallel modes the key stays the same and the notes change. I prefer to use Parallel modes as I find parallel easier to incorporate into my playing, your choice. Good luck with modes, once you understand how to use them they can add so much to your playing.
Here is Scott's video: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] I usually have to click the blank screen several times for the video to load.
Good luck.
Scott Devine in his video on how to practice modes does a very good job of showing us how we can make each mode and then I think more important how and when to use them in the music we play. He touches on both relative modes and parallel modes. With Relative modes the key changes and the notes stay the same. This is an easy way to teach modes and is probably the method you learned first. With Parallel modes the key stays the same and the notes change. I prefer to use Parallel modes as I find parallel easier to incorporate into my playing, your choice. Good luck with modes, once you understand how to use them they can add so much to your playing.
Here is Scott's video: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] I usually have to click the blank screen several times for the video to load.
Good luck.
Think of the scale as a "species" and each mode as a "breed".
Each mode derives from starting on each of the notes of the scale so the modes are all related to each other. They also correspond to the individual chords that naturally occur within a key.
The main scales to learn and practice all 7 modes for are diatonic major, melodic minor, and harmonic minor.
Using the natural 1 3 5 and 7 of each mode in the scale with give you all the naturally occurring chords as well. It's all about drawing a mental map of not only the physical fretboard but how all the harmonies within a particular tone center in a song relate to each other so it's important to think chordally to practicing them as music. i.e. Practicing them over changes. Doing this will give you a mental map of all the "inside" harmonic ideas within the key. They are also the key to much the "outside" stuff as well.
Practicing the modes without consideration for the parent scale and the chords they align to within that scale is nothing more then a muscle memory exercise. This is fine when first learning them but the fingerings are really not that hard (that's the beauty of our instrument, try a woodwind sometime.)
Here's the first exercise. Starting with C (3rd fret A string) Play the C Major scale: Ionian Mode. Say/Sing the note names as you do it. Now do it again thinking of the C Major 7 chord. Think of the C E G and B. Where they fall under your fingers within the mode. Alternate between playing the arpeggio and the mode. Now do this over 2 octaves, over the entire fingerboard. This is your fretboard on the IM7 chord in the key of C major. Use all the up down tricks for both the mode and the arpeggio. Repeat for the remaining modes.
Ionian/Major Scale: IM7
Dorian: IIm7
Phrygian: IIIm7
Lydian: IVM7
Mixolydian: V7
Aeolian/Natural minor scale: VIm7
Locrian: VIIm7b5
Once you got the diatonic down start working on the melodic and harmonic minors. Listen to "Kind of Blue".
I read all your posts on the first page so far, great stuff. But I do have a few questions. Can a mode start on a note not found in C major (an accidental)? Do all modes, like scales, have a static pattern of intervals? And I still don't see how they're different really. They seem to work the same.
DiabolusInMusic
Functionless Art is Merely Tolerated Vandalism
Yes, modes can start on accidentals, and yes they are all made up of intervals that do not change. Think of the modes more so as 7 different starting points of 1 scale instead of 7 scales.
Groove Master
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I'm not sure about your statement about modes starting on accidentals. If you mean it starts on a flat or a sharp part of the key signature, yes i do agree but if you mean a mode that start or even have an outside note from the key, then I wouldn't consider that a related mode or scale to the key.
Just to make sure because too much wrong informations pops out here regarding modes and that is a big shame.
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If you do this, it's the quickest way to confusion about modes.
Instead, understand the modes with a common root note:
Ionian/Major - C D E F G A B C
Dorian - C D Eb F G A Bb C
Phrygian - C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C
Lydian - C D E F# G A B C
Mixolydian - C D E F G A Bb C
Aolean/Minor - C D Eb F G Ab Bb C
Locrian - C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C
This is vitally important and bears repeating...
]If you do this, it's the quickest way to confusion about modes.
Instead, understand the modes with a common root note:
Ionian/Major - C D E F G A B C
Dorian - C D Eb F G A Bb C
Phrygian - C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C
Lydian - C D E F# G A B C
Mixolydian - C D E F G A Bb C
Aolean/Minor - C D Eb F G Ab Bb C
Locrian - C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C
EDITED: slight typo corrected (twice
) here and in the quoted post to avoid future confusion - C Dorian should be Bb, not B natural.Bill.
Groove Master
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LOL
This is where we differ in point of view pacman. i know we had this kind of discussion in another modes thread. ;-)
Just to put my use of modes in context here, I do believe in learning the modes from the major scale first to identify their harmonic relationships, their constructions, arpeggios and possible extensions within a key, which is to me THE first step to grasp. There is just a lack of practical examples when we present modes to beginners but there are so many to choose from in the real world.
Anyway I do suggest to you a possible thread on modes with the right information about what they are, where they come from, what you can do with them and ways to practice them, even if we all don't see it or use them the same way.
And then I would like to see that as a sticky in GI.
I think it would make the threads about modes more instructive and evolved.
What do you think ?
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There is already a thread on practicing scales and modes stickied in this forum. It's been going for about 10 years now, and many have given favorable response there.
Writing a piece in an ionian mode is NOT the same as writing something in a major key. Modal harmony systems are vastly different from the idea of tonality.
Modes are a very old system of music theory originally used in monohonic and polyphonic music that was based on the art of counterpoint instead of the harmonic tonality that was explored from the baroque era onward. (Yes counterpoint still existed but other than fugue it gave way to homophonic music such as chorales and music based on a melody over a chord progression.)
I understand the confusion in the scale verses modes argument as far as 'are ther the same this'. The answer is that yes, a dorian scale is the same notes as a dorian mode, but playing modal music in dorian is MUCH different than using a dorian scale as a 'chord scale' (over a ii chord for example in the middle of a ii V progression).
The sound difference in these types of music (tonality and modal) is that modal music sounds much more stagnant than tonal music. Tonal music has functional harmony where as modal music explores the one sound of that mode before moving on. For instance a dominant V chord does not exist as a functional chord in a piece in aolean, though it does exist in a piece in a minor tonality.
This is a very simplistic overview but I hope this shows the difference in term origins. It is also important to remember that the term mode is often used to describe a chord scale and if you try and correct the person talking it will probably end with then thinking you're an arrogant jerk.
Modes are a very old system of music theory originally used in monohonic and polyphonic music that was based on the art of counterpoint instead of the harmonic tonality that was explored from the baroque era onward. (Yes counterpoint still existed but other than fugue it gave way to homophonic music such as chorales and music based on a melody over a chord progression.)
I understand the confusion in the scale verses modes argument as far as 'are ther the same this'. The answer is that yes, a dorian scale is the same notes as a dorian mode, but playing modal music in dorian is MUCH different than using a dorian scale as a 'chord scale' (over a ii chord for example in the middle of a ii V progression).
The sound difference in these types of music (tonality and modal) is that modal music sounds much more stagnant than tonal music. Tonal music has functional harmony where as modal music explores the one sound of that mode before moving on. For instance a dominant V chord does not exist as a functional chord in a piece in aolean, though it does exist in a piece in a minor tonality.
This is a very simplistic overview but I hope this shows the difference in term origins. It is also important to remember that the term mode is often used to describe a chord scale and if you try and correct the person talking it will probably end with then thinking you're an arrogant jerk.
Groove Master
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I didn't see any specific sticky about modes.
i was talking about a thread that can answer some basics questions about what they are and how you can use them which is a subject that come out a lot and get all confusing for the ones that ask questions here.
Just a suggestion and I'm willing to start one if you want ;-)
LOL
This is where we differ in point of view pacman. i know we had this kind of discussion in another modes thread. ;-)
Just to put my use of modes in context here, I do believe in learning the modes from the major scale first to identify their harmonic relationships, their constructions, arpeggios and possible extensions within a key, which is to me THE first step to grasp. There is just a lack of practical examples when we present modes to beginners but there are so many to choose from in the real world.
Anyway I do suggest to you a possible thread on modes with the right information about what they are, where they come from, what you can do with them and ways to practice them, even if we all don't see it or use them the same way.
And then I would like to see that as a sticky in GI.
I think it would make the threads about modes more instructive and evolved.
What do you think ?
I think the previous post with the Scott's Bass Lessons link is probably the best practical example for anyone, including beginners. Perfectly explained and illustrated...
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
I agree that modes are scales. But is every scale a mode? Is a WH diminished scale a mode?
