• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Difference in Capacitors

pedroims

pedroims

Dec 19, 2007
4,373
4,348
Michigan
#1
I am changing the stock pickup in my MIA Fender and I am adding a Lindy pickup, I found this place in the internet that offers fully wired passive harnesses, I can select between SBE Orange Drop capacitors (no extra charge), or for an up charge the offer some other caps:
- Alessandro High End vintage repro wax and paper capacitors,
- Vitamin Q Paper & Oil capacitors, or
- the ultra high quality V-Cap TFTF Teflon® Film and Foil capacitors.

Does anybody have experience with this cap and the most important thing, Do they really improve the tone versus the orange drop?

They also have 'Alessandro High End Pots'' upgrade for $ 150

I dont mind paying the premiums for higher quality components but do they actually do something for the sound of your bass?

http://www.guitar-mod.com/rg_kit_caps.html
 
#4
Capacitance is measured in Farads. A Farad is a Farad, much the same that a Watt is a Watt. Unlike wattage, there are no SS vs Tube Farad arguments.......

Until now.....
 
#5
What is your style/genre of music? The standard orange drop should be fine if you are a fingerstyle player and don't need much "mwah" or "growl." Personally I like the teflon film and foil for slap & pop, but for fretless, forget about it---got to have paper & oil! The wax ones are nice for pick style BUT not if you're going for that Carol Kaye sound---she is on record as saying she achieved her signature "muted" sound using a small piece of foam.
 
#6
Phalex said:
Capacitance is measured in Farads. A Farad is a Farad, much the same that a Watt is a Watt. Unlike wattage, there are no SS vs Tube Farad arguments.......

Until now.....
Click to expand...

At the voltages coming from a pickup - this is largely true.

In certain cases (outside audio band, highly varying temperatures, high voltages, etc.) - a Farad isn't just a Farad.

pick21lg.jpg


pick17lg.jpg


pick22lg.jpg


That being said...

At audio frequencies with the voltages present from a pickup - as long as you avoid the worst ceramic dielectrics and stay away from polarised caps (tantalums or electrolytics) - everything is pretty much the same.

A standard $0.25 film cap will be as good as any of those boutiques.
 
#7
Awesomely informative post, aborgman, thanks for sharing!

For those reading this who might not be familiar with how graphs work, most of the graphs in aborgman's post are in a range of +/- 2%. If you were to revise the graphs to show a range of, say, +/- 100%, then the lines would be a lot flatter/straighter. ;)
 
#8
Usually, the reason that people claim to hear differences between capacitors, in this application, is that capacitors are subject to variations in tolerance. What usually happens is that someone will start off with a ceramic capacitor, which can be as far off as 80% (!!!) and then switch to something else with a tighter tolerance like 5%, and end up with a different actual capacitance, and attribute the difference in frequency cutoff to the composition of the capacitor, rather than the difference in capacitance. If you take two capacitors of equal capacitance (Actual, not rated.), they will sound the same. All of the other factors, like leakage current and resistance, ESR and ESL, etc. do not have any significant effect in this application, where you are dealing with a couple of volts maximum, at millionths of an Amp, in audio frequency ranges.
 
#10
line6man said:
If you take two capacitors of equal capacitance (Actual, not rated.), they will sound the same. All of the other factors, like leakage current and resistance, ESR and ESL, etc. do not have any significant effect in this application, where you are dealing with a couple of volts maximum, at millionths of an Amp, in audio frequency ranges.
Click to expand...

One thing that may be a factor, and is a good reason to avoid high K dielectric ceramic capacitors, is microphonics.
 
#11
The big format capacitors have other electrical properties than just the same capacitance under all conditions. It is possible that they sound a bit different.

To be honest it's very easy to test with a couple caps and some crocodile clips.

Myself I think I perceive a difference and I gotta tell you that just because a capacitor looks large (physically) doesn't mean it sounds a certain way. The ceramic discs have a certain "drive" (or roar) to them and orange drops are softer. Which one is better? Depends on what you want. Then there are the russian NOS paper-in-oil parts that were sold on TGP and they have more of that roar, that means they are opposite side of the spectrum compared to the orange drops with the small ceramic disks in between. So size != sound. And sound != which is better.

The difference is very small, however.

Oh and all this will depend on your guitar cable because there's significant load capacitance coming from there.
 
#12
uOpt said:
The big format capacitors have other electrical properties than just the same capacitance under all conditions. It is possible that they sound a bit different.

To be honest it's very easy to test with a couple caps and some crocodile clips.

Myself I think I perceive a difference and I gotta tell you that just because a capacitor looks large (physically) doesn't mean it sounds a certain way. The ceramic discs have a certain "drive" (or roar) to them and orange drops are softer. Which one is better? Depends on what you want. Then there are the russian NOS paper-in-oil parts that were sold on TGP and they have more of that roar, that means they are opposite side of the spectrum compared to the orange drops with the small ceramic disks in between. So size != sound. And sound != which is better.

The difference is very small, however.

Oh and all this will depend on your guitar cable because there's significant load capacitance coming from there.
Click to expand...

Unless your alligator clips can measure capacitance, I gotta go with line6man on this.

Q: don't orange drops come in different tolerances? Haven't I seen 5, 10 and 20% versions? Also, I'm not sure the tighter tolerance is the one that you want. What if the capacitor the helps a vintage P bass have that magic tone is a capacitor that is way at the far end or the tolerace range?
 
#13
uOpt said:
To be honest it's very easy to test with a couple caps and some crocodile clips.
Click to expand...

A few years ago I tested three different types of high tolerance caps which all had the same value.

The caps were OD polypropylene, OD polyester, Mallory 150. Not cheap RS stuff, not expensive booteek stuff, just "good" caps.

I had them on a rotary switch.

There IS a subtle difference.

Sprague OD polyester - bouncy/rubbery
Sprague OD polyporpylene - punchy
Mallory 150 - in between

YMMV, etc
 
#15
I'm in the process of evaluating caps. I've got Sprague Orange Drop #225P and Russian paper-in-oil, each in both .047uf and .1uf values. Also, a Sprague Vitamin Q in .1uf.

I have short alligator clip leads soldered into my bass controls where the stock 'Chiclet' cap used to be. Nothing wrong with the original sound (G&L JB2 Tribute), but I'll be changing the wiring to V-B-T with S1 switch and... push-pull switch on the tone pot to select between two caps, one a .047uf and the other a .1uf. I'm interested to see what I can get for my trouble by testing some caps of varying composition.

I set the V-V-T to some useful position and play. I then quickly change caps via the alligator clips and play the same thing. I have repeated this procedure with several different V-V-T settings and have played different licks, low and high on the neck.

The Orange Drop and the Russian PIO are quite different. The Russian and the Vitamin Q... not so much, but a slight difference is consistently noticeable nonetheless.

Yes, I believe that a certain uf value will filter certain frequencies, but that may not be the whole story. Does one cap filter the fundamental and all the harmonics in the same proportions as the same value cap composed of different materials? I really don't know, but I definitely hear the differences.

I have no interest in being right (or wrong). I just wanted to try it for myself and it's been interesting. Still haven't chosen the two caps for my rewire.

I would go with 'mushroo's remarks (and 'aborgman's graphs if you can interpret them).
 
#16
dmusic148 said:
C'mon folks. If you know how the circuit works you also know that what you hear is what DIDN'T go through the cap. Pretty hard to imagine how it could affect the sound. It drains treble from the signal, nothing more.
Click to expand...

That's one of the advantages of actually testing them.

You don't have to "imagine" anything, you can hear for yourself.

I've also noticed that most people who claim there's no difference haven't bothered to do any testing.
 
#19
pedroims said:
http://www.guitar-mod.com/rg_kit_caps.html
Click to expand...

Capacitor Selection

All of our wiring kits are available with the choice of the following 4 capacitors.

SBE ORANGE DROP (.022 uf $1.90, .047 uf $2.25)

SBE Orange Drop Capacitors have a long history of proven reliability. They are fine and reasonably priced capacitors which are well suited for guitar applications. These are made from polypropylene and aluminum foil and coated in the signature flame retardant orange epoxy.

ALESSANDRO HIGH END WAX & PAPAER (.022 uf and .047 uf $49.99)

Alessandro wax and paper caps are amazing and offer a great tonal improvement. These caps are hand made and a faithful reproduction of the caps used in the mid 1950's.


ALLPARTS VITAMIN Q OIL & PAPER (.022 uf and .047 uf $13.80)

This is new production capacitor made by ALLPARTS and NOT new old stock. Many feel that oil and paper provide the best sound. These film capacitors use oil soaked paper as di-electric material and are therefore well damped and very smooth and natural in sound.

VH Audio V-CAP TFTF TEFLON® FILM & FOILL (.022 uf $60.88, .047 uf $69.28)

These are the finest caps you can put into a guitar. The V-Cap TFTF Teflon® film and tin foil audiophile capacitors are the result of an extensive research and development project by a team of world-renowned experts in electrical engineering, chemistry, materials science, and some of the top minds (and "ears") in the audio industry. These experts were commissioned to help design, build, and evaluate a "cost-no-object" capacitor for reference-grade audiophile applications. The resulting series of proprietary materials and processes has produced one of the most extraordinary, musical capacitors ever made. V-Caps are NOT a “rebrand” or relabeling of an already existing product, but a unique new capacitor design that has been meticulously engineered and handcrafted in the U.S.A. Andy Rothstein is featured on the VH Audio website
Click to expand...

$60.28, $49.99 and even $13.80 is absolutely insane for a tone cap in a guitar. I guarantee that nobody could tell which was which between one of those rip offs and a $0.50 cap from radio shack of the same value.

A sucker is born every day.
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back