But the effects aren't Major.
We should probably stop this before it gets even worse.
Reid
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Difference in Capacitors
- Thread starter pedroims
- Start date
But the effects aren't Major.
We should probably stop this before it gets even worse.
Reid
You don't even have to leave this forum. Look at the all the different discussion on TB about what does or doesn't "affect tone"; some of the claims are pretty wild.
Amen (an ancient expression meaning "+1").
Great point. If the cap is also acting as a transducer all bets are off, and you're unlikely to find that on a capacitor spec sheet. That's why the ultimate test has to be listening, but it has to be, as nashvillebill noted, more than one guy with a soldering iron and a truckload of biases.
Reid
That was really neat, and I look forward to more videos. I think I actually hear more difference depending on how your pick hit the strings than I did from capacitors, and I listened to a good bit of it without watching.
Which one was different in test 5? Are my ears as dead as they appear to be?
Thanks Wvbass. Yes, consistency of attack is certainly an issue, and although I feel I made best reasonable efforts to keep it consistent (by playing unmoved and uninterrupted while an assistant did the switching), there are certainly some flubs and changes in attack through the process. In playing each position 8 times total in each test phase however, our hopes were that the errors would balance out, and if there were a difference enough to be certain of it would still come through clearly enough.
For test 5 the change was somewhat subtle, but should be clear if you listen to it through a decent audio reproduction system. In the review (2nd video I linked to) we give the actual results and make clear why we included this. It was essentially an effort to weed through the survey results to only include participants who could demonstrate they were listening through at least decent speakers or headphones. If you haven't watched the 2nd video yet, I would suggest waiting until you've had a chance to listen to test #5 in the first clip through some decent speakers. My guess is that you'll be able to pick out the difference there before being shown the answer key.
It's really not that hard to do overall consistent playing across several recordings if you play a simple enough thing.
FWIW, my testing was with guitar and you can best hear it with classical style fingerpicking (or maybe that's just what I can do most consistent).
I would love to believe that capacitor construction somehow has an influence on tone. However, those that argue in favor of construction type influencing tone usually make such a terrible job of it, demonstrating a lack of basic electrical engineering knowledge, that I just cannot follow their arguments at all.
The main attribute any bassist should care about in a passive circuit is the capacitor value. That is, its true value and not the one reported by the manufacturer. Most cap 'cork sniffers' tend to ignore this. Old capacitors, using obsolete construction techniques, can drift off value by 50%. This drift can be initiated by a shift in climactic conditions, so they can read differently on different days. I've only seen one demo for capacitors where the guy actually bothered to scope out the capacitors.
As anybody should know, capacitors remove treble. Therefore you aren't hearing the cap (roaring, or whatever it was that guy said on page 1), but the signal that is left behind by the cap. I cannot see how there is a difference, in a passive circuit, between capacitors of the truly same value. Capacitance is simple electronic function. There is no 'room' within the function of a capacitor to allow the myriad different sonic attributes that people love to claim to hear.
What I do find interesting is that people report that ceramic capacitors sound 'hard' and that paper in oil capacitors sound 'softer' or 'more organic'. I truly think there is something psychological at play here. We all remember ceramics in art class at high school, baking stuff to high temperatures to set and glaze the artwork. I think people associate the word 'ceramic' with hard, cold objects then vilify ceramic capacitors based on this associated information. Likewise people describe brass bridge saddles as 'warmer' and steel saddles as 'brighter', but all they did was tell us the colours of the respective units.
The main attribute any bassist should care about in a passive circuit is the capacitor value. That is, its true value and not the one reported by the manufacturer. Most cap 'cork sniffers' tend to ignore this. Old capacitors, using obsolete construction techniques, can drift off value by 50%. This drift can be initiated by a shift in climactic conditions, so they can read differently on different days. I've only seen one demo for capacitors where the guy actually bothered to scope out the capacitors.
As anybody should know, capacitors remove treble. Therefore you aren't hearing the cap (roaring, or whatever it was that guy said on page 1), but the signal that is left behind by the cap. I cannot see how there is a difference, in a passive circuit, between capacitors of the truly same value. Capacitance is simple electronic function. There is no 'room' within the function of a capacitor to allow the myriad different sonic attributes that people love to claim to hear.
What I do find interesting is that people report that ceramic capacitors sound 'hard' and that paper in oil capacitors sound 'softer' or 'more organic'. I truly think there is something psychological at play here. We all remember ceramics in art class at high school, baking stuff to high temperatures to set and glaze the artwork. I think people associate the word 'ceramic' with hard, cold objects then vilify ceramic capacitors based on this associated information. Likewise people describe brass bridge saddles as 'warmer' and steel saddles as 'brighter', but all they did was tell us the colours of the respective units.
+1
My thoughts exactly except you put it far better than I ever could.
On the subject though if I had paid $50 for a capacitor* I would damn well want it to sound better than a 10 cent chicklet.
* Not going to happen as it is common knowledge (in the UK) that a Yorkshireman is pretty much like a Scot but devoid of the generosity!
Here's an interesting idea that I saw referred to in another forum relating to the subject of dialectric differences:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric_absorption
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric_absorption
I certainly have. Lots and lots and lots of them. As demonstrated in the videos posted above, I've yet to find a sinlgle person who can identify a difference between dielectrics (of the same tested value) in a blind test.
David, have you tried testing the roll off of a pot and if it exhibits varying behaviors with different dialectric types of the same value?
I don't see how dielectric absorption applies to tone caps on a passive bass, they are never left charged because they always have the tone pot and pickup to discharge them.
Unless I am missing something really obvious of course, in which case please correct me.
I believe the argument being made was that if dialectrics made a difference in this context where such small voltages came into play, than perhaps they could make a difference in a guitar circuit. It's not my theory so I don't have to correct you if you're wrong
But how is the pot discharging the stored energy in the cap if the pot is rolled fully off? Those electrons are then stored in the cap, no?
1) buy a cap tester... They're about $20 on Amazon.
2) check the actual capacitance of the different caps with the tester.
3) if there's any variance in values of the different caps being tested, a new variable is introduced into the test and results are flawed.
A cap drains off treble. There may be a different response by each cap but at the super low voltage coming from the pickup, the difference in response is extremely negligible. Putting a PIO in a guitar is ridiculous. You're stamping an expiration date on the guts for a silly attempt to get a magic tone out of the guitar.
I got a handful of Spragues from stewmac... Why? They have beefy leads and are known to be long lasting. Tone wise, I found very little difference between them and the factory film cap.
2) check the actual capacitance of the different caps with the tester.
3) if there's any variance in values of the different caps being tested, a new variable is introduced into the test and results are flawed.
A cap drains off treble. There may be a different response by each cap but at the super low voltage coming from the pickup, the difference in response is extremely negligible. Putting a PIO in a guitar is ridiculous. You're stamping an expiration date on the guts for a silly attempt to get a magic tone out of the guitar.
I got a handful of Spragues from stewmac... Why? They have beefy leads and are known to be long lasting. Tone wise, I found very little difference between them and the factory film cap.
The first test layout I made only used three preset resistors - 250k, ~50k if I recall correctly, and 0 (simulating. Pot on 10, around the middle, and at zero). The next three test rigs I made each allow for full sweep of the tone pot with instant cap switching at any position. So far, I've not been able to verify a difference between any types of cap anywhere throughout the roll off.
I believe the argument being made was that if dialectrics made a difference in this context where such small voltages came into play, than perhaps they could make a difference in a guitar circuit. It's not my theory so I don't have to correct you if you're wrong
No, even with the pot rolled off it will still have a resistance (250K or whatever) and will complete the circuit through the pickup coil in parallel with the volume pot so would discharge any small residual voltage on the cap in a short time
However there will be no residual voltage on the cap as the pickup signal will die away to nothing as the string vibration decays. To leave a residual voltage you would have to break the connection to the cap when the signal was not at zero - which in a normal bass will never occur.
So in a treble bleed circuit, what is dissipating the charge in the vol pot cap, assuming it is constantly rolled on? Isn't it safe to assume that caps in a bass circuit are seeing relatively constant voltage charges? The voltage dissipates as string movement decreases, but during play, the strings are moving more often than not.
The pickups have internal resistance to ground, so any cap in the circuit has a path to discharge.
edit: Here's one SPICE model of a humbucking guitar pickup in-circuit. https://www.circuitlab.com/circuit/5mfu66/guitar-pickup-model/
Other similar models can be found on the Interwebz using your favorite search engine. They can model how the circuit behaves using different values of caps. The frequency range of a guitar or bass is so low that many esoteric cap properties like dissipation factor will have no effect. The cap's value in capacitance is the only factor of any importance ehre.
edit: Here's one SPICE model of a humbucking guitar pickup in-circuit. https://www.circuitlab.com/circuit/5mfu66/guitar-pickup-model/
Other similar models can be found on the Interwebz using your favorite search engine. They can model how the circuit behaves using different values of caps. The frequency range of a guitar or bass is so low that many esoteric cap properties like dissipation factor will have no effect. The cap's value in capacitance is the only factor of any importance ehre.
I will double-dip here and add a link to a quite technical study of different capacitors Link Removed Rod Elliott is a no-nonsense designer and his articles dispel much of the audiophool BS that is propagated these days.
I especially like his concluding remark:
Electronic equipment is designed using facts and mathematics, not opinion and dogma.
I especially like his concluding remark:
Electronic equipment is designed using facts and mathematics, not opinion and dogma.
What I don't understand is why either side of the issue is so vehemently against the other. I can understand if someone were to walk in and say "You should only buy xxx cap because they're the best and here's a link to my ebay store". Or on the flip: "You're an idiot for using xxx cap over a $1 radio shack." But everything else just seems like a pissing match. I use paper in oil, polyester, ceramics, polypropylene...the good stuff
I love watching the vids and reading both sides arguments and welcome anything thought provoking or with new insight. That said...
Why anyone would care what anyone else uses or spends their money on is beyond me. Know why I use PIO? Because I can get them cheaper, the ones I get test to spec, they look like a tiny space ship landed in my control cavity and because I can. That last part is important. I'd solder a quarter stick of dynamite onto my tone pot if it said ".047" on it
Basically what I'm trying to say, is that if anyone wants to beat the horse corpse any further, there a literally thousands of pages spread across the guitar forums about this very subject.
The one thing I would like to know and see, would be what caps those who say there is no difference use in their guitars and basses. I'd also like to see the caps of those that say there is a difference. Maybe we could start a "Post your tone cap" pic thread and just learn to be +/-10% tolerant of other people's views
I love watching the vids and reading both sides arguments and welcome anything thought provoking or with new insight. That said...
Why anyone would care what anyone else uses or spends their money on is beyond me. Know why I use PIO? Because I can get them cheaper, the ones I get test to spec, they look like a tiny space ship landed in my control cavity and because I can. That last part is important. I'd solder a quarter stick of dynamite onto my tone pot if it said ".047" on it
Basically what I'm trying to say, is that if anyone wants to beat the horse corpse any further, there a literally thousands of pages spread across the guitar forums about this very subject.
The one thing I would like to know and see, would be what caps those who say there is no difference use in their guitars and basses. I'd also like to see the caps of those that say there is a difference. Maybe we could start a "Post your tone cap" pic thread and just learn to be +/-10% tolerant of other people's views
