• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Disadvantages to playing with 3 fingers

henry2513 said:
This is great info thank you very much, I'm definitely going to do this, it makes perfect sense.

No probs, let me know how you get on, you should start to see a difference in days depending on use. Also good to run through it as an exercise for both hands as it will help train the little finger of the fretting hand. Again, the reason Simandl works so effective for the fretting hand is because it utilises the little and ring fingers compatibility to work together as one.
 
No probs, let me know how you get on, you should start to see a difference in days depending on use. Also good to run through it as an exercise for both hands as it will help train the little finger of the fretting hand. Again, the reason Simandl works so effective for the fretting hand is because it utilises the little and ring fingers compatibility to work together as one.


Right on, will do. Thanks again.
 
No probs, let me know how you get on, you should start to see a difference in days depending on use. Also good to run through it as an exercise for both hands as it will help train the little finger of the fretting hand. Again, the reason Simandl works so effective for the fretting hand is because it utilises the little and ring fingers compatibility to work together as one.


Well I gave it a run through yesterday. I'm having a devil of a time with my fretting hand! Any specific exercises for that one?

The right hand was O.K, I was able to hold the coin with my pinky and still use the ring finger to play reasonably well - that's probably a product of all the time I've invested in learning the Gary Willis technique. I'm going to continue doing the exercise with both hands.

Thanks again, I appreciate it.
 
Fergie's 'coin' excersise is interesting and useful, but his explaination of 'tight tendons' wanting to straighten the ring finger doesn't make sense to me. If it's as he says, a mechanical problem, why can I lay my index, middle, and ring fingers flat on a table, and use my other hand to curl the pinkie into a ball, with no stress whatsoever? Its a brain problem, not a muscle/ tendon problem. IMO.
 
Fergie's 'coin' excersise is interesting and useful, but his explaination of 'tight tendons' wanting to straighten the ring finger doesn't make sense to me. If it's as he says, a mechanical problem, why can I lay my index, middle, and ring fingers flat on a table, and use my other hand to curl the pinkie into a ball, with no stress whatsoever? Its a brain problem, not a muscle/ tendon problem. IMO.

Everything in terms of movement Is in fact "brain" instigated, by virtue of what we think instigates the movement.
But the body had varies types of muscle that work in different ways. The tasks are shared but in life we tend not to use the full functions we have, so they become part of other functions.
What we have to do is dis-associate those functions, and in the case of the fingers re- learn those movements.

So stop blinking for ten minutes.....can't do it, but now you are aware of it and if you practice you can increase the time you take before you blink.....if you want.

The same as holding your breath, you can learn to ignore the bodies reaction to breathe in with practice, especially in say, swimming or underwater diving. Fact is we can use or brains to control certain muscle function if we are aware of them, that 's why training works, it conditions a controlled response or reaction to a situation rather than just a reaction.

Sorry to say I don't get your point about the fingers flat on the table and use the other hand to curl the little finger into a ball.
For me I just curl the little finger into a ball without having to use the other hand.

Part of the problems with techniques is identifying what the real problem is.
Yes we are all designed the same features, two arms, hands, legs,eyes, ears etc and then we get into the variations. Now the variations can be size, colour, amount,etc and of course ability.
So part of the problem is having the ability to do something and then being able to use that ability.
Swimming for example, we all have the ability to do it, but it is amazing how many people can't swim.
So it is with music, we all have the ability to do it, but for some reason some are more adept to it than others.
Ten players starting from scratch following the same teaching and playing schedule will get different results, that's why when we leave school we all have different levels of ability and qualifications in the subjects we studied.

So regardless of what the brain wants, if a process is tied in to or has developed a co-dependency to another through time or because pf limited usem then we gently, and that is gently remind it, it does not have to.

Remember it is your brain that decides I will move your fingers to play bass.
That movement is just that to the fingers...it is movement.
It needs all the same in energy, blood supply, chemical and nerve impulses, muscles co-ordination etc as playing the piano, typing on a keyboard, using a remote control, or a games control etc........it is just your own personal experience, that the brain controls, that tells you what the task is when using the exact same physical and biological triggers.
One of the main reason hypnotism works, the brain gets fooled or the action of certain tasks is re-associated or replaced with another.

So yes I agree It could be a brain problem, but maybe later on once the physical ability to do it well has been learned and allows the brain to fully control the movement.
But for now, with the limited info on the user, I will go with the glaringly obvious one that applies to us all....it is this co-dependence of the fingers and the physical fact they share a muscle/tendon use, the fact they are designed to work together rather than separate, the fact is in life we never really use them separately so they are not toned.
Example being, on the fretting hand, our non-dominant weaker one, it takes longer and it is harder to develop because the dominant hand gets a lot of our use. That is by the way the same for any of those two arms, legs, eyes, etc I mentioned earlier, each set will have a dominant and non- dominant side.
And it is a fact if you lose or damage a dominant side function, the other one takes over to be the dominate one, so the brain re-wires in a sense.

So again, the relationship between brain and body is a complicated one and I look at it in two ways. Is the brain getting in the way of the function or is the function getting in the way of the brain, because that is the basic level that does not need to equate personal experience or physical characteristic, which we all have some many variations of, that we can cut to the point in fact.

And again it is shown in the length of some of my posts and the way I write them. A few lines ago I said "cut to the point in fact". Reason for not saying "cut to the chase" is that is an expression, so if you are familier with it then it makes sense, but the TB form is International and such an expression make confuse anyone who's first language is nor English.
So because I am aware of this I....personally .......take the long way round in explaining things to try and avoid any confusion, something that someone else not aware, or does not care about, would not do.
These things take longer to write about than they do to demonstrate or talk about, I mean this post only takes a minute or so to demo at a clinic, not the book it can become when writing. LOL
 
Well I gave it a run through yesterday. I'm having a devil of a time with my fretting hand! Any specific exercises for that one?

The right hand was O.K, I was able to *hold the coin with my pinky and still use the ring finger to play reasonably well - that's probably a product of all the time I've invested in learning the Gary Willis technique. I'm going to continue doing the exercise with both hands.

Thanks again, I appreciate it.

Reason is I assume the right hand is your dominant hand?

Example being, on the fretting hand, our non-dominant weaker one, it takes longer and it is harder to develop because the dominant hand gets a lot of our use....and always has done so it is better tones and with better neural pathways to do so.
And it is a fact if you lose or damage a dominant side function, the other one takes over to be the dominate one, so the brain re-wires in a sense to cope. So what we need to do is increase and remind us of the range of motion we actually have, not what we use

Like I said it takes time and this is because we have to un-learn not replace. If we just replace a function rather than un-learn it and then re- learn the new one, then in times of stress or when put to the test the old dominant one will take over. We have this problem in life, but we call them habits. This is a sort of Proprioception, which rather than explain it, and some of the other points mentioned, I have put up some links that will deal with them at a general level and an article or two concerning Dr. Bob Markison, one of the worlds leading hand surgeons who just happens to be a musician.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNF_stretching

Link Removed

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Link Removed
 
Fergie Fulton said:
Sorry to say I don't get your point about the fingers flat on the table and use the other hand to curl the little finger into a ball.
For me I just curl the little finger into a ball without having to use the other hand.
I'm saying the independence problem between ring and pinkie is not a physical one, which you seem to insist it is. Anyone can do my little test to prove it. There is no physical stress anywhere when doing it.
YOU are able to curl your pinky without curling your ring finger because you have trained your BRAIN to do it, not muscles or tendons.
 
I'm saying the independence problem between ring and pinkie is not a physical one, which you seem to insist it is. *Anyone can do my little test to prove it. There is no physical stress anywhere when doing it.
YOU are able to curl your pinky without curling your ring finger because you have trained your BRAIN to do it, not muscles or tendons.



I see your point. Well sort of,but still the answer lies is being able to physically do the task. *I am not saying it is all physical, but you are saying it is not a physical one and in that, unless I am missing you intention is wrong.
Sorry if that is the case.

In your view it then you decide to do it then it happens?

Well the answer to that is no...not always and vey rarely when new tasks or movement are involved.

In learning the task it become easier and it becomes easier because the physical side is becoming better at doing what the brain wants and what you expect to get from it.
This is based in Proprioception link which sort of explains the idea of internalisation.
It's is also based in the results from PNF stretching, which is not me saying it but me reiterating the point with the use of the coin as an aid to help seperate the movement easier.
The time to learn it and then utilise it is a long way down the line, but the improvement of the task is there for all to see eg.
The ring finger will move without the influence of the little finger because the little finger is otherwise occupied doing something else.
The little finger is not restrained or helped in anyway it is at this stage being freed from the ring finger, and vica versa to do a different set of motion. Which is not be so influenced by the ring finger. Then later on the ring finger can be freed of its influence of the middle finger and so on. But it deals with one task and problem at a time....in this case.

If you come to what I talk about as a new reader then you will have to catch up, if you want to, so please do a search on some of the things i have posted about, because I have in the past gone into detail about how the brain controls our actions.
What you have latched on to, and wrongly out of context, is the idea that is always a physical thing.
Well no, all I am saying is in this instance with the players experience and what he is trying to do, it is a physical thing that once addressed will let his brain take over and use this new learned skill.

Trust me you cannot do what is physically possible just by thinking it alone without understanding the process that work. If that process is damaged, injured or tired, then it takes time. Then in that time each new bit of movement is the physical side getting on board with the brain and vice versa.

All I am saying is what we understand, and it is some of the worlds leading physicians and specialist that say and publish these findings.
All I do is have the knack to make them as practical as I can to players that feel they could be of benefit, by teaching them how incorporate them into their playing as I have done for nearly 20 years.
 
Reason is I assume the right hand is your dominant hand?

Example being, on the fretting hand, our non-dominant weaker one, it takes longer and it is harder to develop because the dominant hand gets a lot of our use....and always has done so it is better tones and with better neural pathways to do so.
And it is a fact if you lose or damage a dominant side function, the other one takes over to be the dominate one, so the brain re-wires in a sense to cope. So what we need to do is increase and remind us of the range of motion we actually have, not what we use

Like I said it takes time and this is because we have to un-learn not replace. If we just replace a function rather than un-learn it and then re- learn the new one, then in times of stress or when put to the test the old dominant one will take over. We have this problem in life, but we call them habits. This is a sort of Proprioception, which rather than explain it, and some of the other points mentioned, I have put up some links that will deal with them at a general level and an article or two concerning Dr. Bob Markison, one of the worlds leading hand surgeons who just happens to be a musician.

Proprioception - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

PNF stretching - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Link Removed

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Link Removed


Yes my right hand is my dominant hand and I believe I'm already seeing some results from working with my fretting hand. I'll report back in a couple of days.
 
I played classical for years (decades, ulp!) so thumb and three fingers on right hand work fine -- if you practice you can get away from the triplets thing too. I play with a pick too. Different tools for different jobs. Don't use a screwdriver to bang in a nail ...

Although reflexology? Dumb woo pseudoscience at best.
 
I have a related question: who here plays, two-finger style, with the index and ring finger instead of the index and middle fingers? Is there any difference in tone, more even or less even? How about playability with those fingers? After all, they are closer to each other in length.

Cheers.

I started this way as a kid just cause those two were the fastest together and though I assumed it was because they were similar in length, I have no idea if that is the reason.
I took a long layoff and got back into playing several years ago and now use 3, but really the ring and middle substitute back and forth as opposed to triple up action. More of a "what works easiest here" thing.
Here's an example. Blues song "tore down". Freddie King with Duck Dunn playing that awesome full tilt riff on the "Gettin Ready World" album I would use the index and ring for speed. Go to the Clapton version riff and I hit double index root notes then dive down to the double octave with the middle because it has the fastest two string reach. I just let the brain and three fingers figure out how to get er done as opposed to sticking to a system. The index and middle do have the most staying power over the long gig though. Funny I never heard any difference in attack volume definition etc. I try but fail to follow the Gary Willis suggestion of turning up and using a moderate touch, then dig in a little when desired. Of course I am as always just a happy bar band hack.:)
 
Not too take this too far off-topic, but is there anything wrong with extending my pinky when playing the 3 finger style? That seems to be what my hand wants to naturally do. The pinky flails around in the air while the ring finger strikes the strings. It even extends a little, as if I am holding a cup of tea. Any advantage to keeping the pinky tucked? I tried the coin exercise and I can see the value (of working on that) for finger independence, but what is the optimal pinky position for playing? It looks like the the Cannibal Corpse bassist is letting his pinky wave about, too (or did I remember that wrong).
 
Not too take this too far off-topic, but is there anything wrong with extending my pinky when playing the 3 finger style? That seems to be what my hand wants to naturally do. The pinky flails around in the air while the ring finger strikes the strings. It even extends a little, as if I am holding a cup of tea. Any advantage to keeping the pinky tucked? I tried the coin exercise and I can see the value (of working on that) for finger independence, but what is the optimal pinky position for playing? It looks like the the Cannibal Corpse bassist is letting his pinky wave about, too (or did I remember that wrong).

Extended/straight, tucked/curled is what we see, but part of the truth of doing it is for keeping the ulnar side still or dormant to allow the radial side support to be dexterous?
Again it's about actually understanding what is going on.
Because the radius side is performing a task, in this case moving the fingers in a controlled and exacting way to play, then the ulnar side needs to be still or passive to playing. This allows the radial side to work at its best.
It is more of an issue to tuck or leave straight the little finger in a plucking style that only involves the radial side.

To see this simple design in action put a coin on a table, then pick it up and rotate it looking at the heads and tails of the coin. Notice how the little and ring finger curl or remain still/passive to allow the thumb, fore and middle finger to actually help lift the coin by being still, then look at how it is rotated.
As a rule we will rotate it with the thumb causing the motion against the resistance of the forefinger against the side and relative stillness of the middle finger. No other fingers needed....so they either curl or remain straight, but they do this passiveness or stillness to allow the other fingers to function better.
Now try the same again with the little finger moving back and forward......most of you, if any, will not be able to do it.

But when it comes to crossing over and use part of the ulnar side we tend to use the ring finger so now there is a related movement due to the nature of there design as mentioned previous.
So what you see in the technique of Alex Webster of Cannibal Corpse is the little finger being straight to be passive, but the waving of it is caused by the other fingers, not by any independent thought or use of it.

On that point, no there is no danger to using the little finger.
In fact I encourage it, I see it as another form of learning to use all the fingers so it is a choice what ones we use and how we move them. So if certain fingers are not used then that is because we have chosen not to use them, not because we have no choice and can't.
Remember that they say "necessity is the mother of invention" and if it turns out you need to use extra fingers it just does not happen, the skill is not in place if you have not developed it so it is not there to call on.

The interaction between the fingers is an unique one, no other animal on this planet can do what we do. No computer, machine or robot can reproduce what we can do with our hands and in the way we use them.

In my opinion I tend to see better results when players tuck it in, but whether to tuck it in or keep it straight is a personal one. I keep mine tucked in and I am also an occasional three finger player, by that I use two fingers alternating but can use three if and when required. Point of note I always practice with three, never with two.
 
It's not so much that 3-finger technique has any disadvantages as much as it just doesn't have any real advantage over 2-finger technique.

Let me add " in an straight forward playing situation."

The same applies to using one finger over two, there is no advantage.... Or so it seems.
Adam posted on the benefits of constant tone by using one finger so that is a distinct advantage over any muli-finger technique if that is what you are doing.
So that is an advantage already. In the 70s when I was a session player, most of the time I was asked to use a pick because the tone was more consistent for recording certain types of music......live you could do what you want because the performance is over when it's over, but on a recording it is there for ever.

As a rule, in playing the more the task can be spread across the fingers of the hand the better the general use and health of the hand will be, it is not about what we get from any one technique as an fast return we can see and use. There are un-seen long time problems that will surface later in players and not just to the hands.
As I have said in the past, playing bass is a skill we adapt to and can manage, it is not a physical function we do naturally so there will be trade offs in health in order to do it.

For some more info follow the link, check out some of the other page articles to get a feel for what I talk about.
For example I was talking about what I called neutral thumb position more than 25 years ago when such a thing was relatively un-heard of and was being seen as hierarchy......now it is becoming the in-thing to talk about neutrality in many aspects of playing and not just bass.

Link Removed
 
jmattbassplaya said:
It's not so much that 3-finger technique has any disadvantages as much as it just doesn't have any real advantage over 2-finger technique.

Seriously? I have found tons of advantages, especially in playing in odd time sigs where there is a three beat pulse. Also, in playing repeated fast passages you have more fingers to do the same amount of work, resulting in less fatigue.
 
I might as well yell this at the moon, but...
For all the time it takes to reign in the awkwardness and reap the advantages of 3 finger technique, you could have just honed your 2 finger chops.
Fwiw ive never MET a player who could do more with 3 fingers than I can with 2. And ive never heard a 3 finger player who bests (or even keeps up with) the best 2'ers.

In fact gary willis is the only guy I find noteworthy, and he is much more meticulous and dedicated in practice than anyone I can think of
 
yep can't do it, it seems like the 3rd finger isn't as strong as the other two and im to stubborn to change.

The ring finger is the weakest finger, because it shares the muscles of the middle and pinkie, if I remember correctly. Try working on isolating it when you play, or play with index and ring. It'll strengthen up and you'll find yourself more in control with it.

Also another disadvantage of playing with 3 fingers is for the most part, you want to count in 3's being that you're using 3 fingers instead of the 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2 of index and middle. It can be broken, but it will indeed take some time. Worth it I think.