• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Disadvantages to playing with 3 fingers

#61
Psycho said:
The ring finger is the weakest finger, because it shares the muscles of the middle and pinkie, if I remember correctly. Try working on isolating it when you play, or play with index and ring. It'll strengthen up and you'll find yourself more in control with it.

Also another disadvantage of playing with 3 fingers is for the most part, you want to count in 3's being that you're using 3 fingers instead of the 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2 of index and middle. It can be broken, but it will indeed take some time. Worth it I think.
Click to expand...

All true to an extent, but the ring finger is weak as such because of lack of movement and use due to its location....it is not physically weak, it can do the same as anu other finger given the chance.

Using three fingers does not mean counting in threes that is a concious decision made my players who knows no better or are self taught, these players wrongly assume this is so because the know no better or have not the experience to know this is not so..

Here is who it really works, not based in idea or fancy but fact:

Two fingers into four is 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4 so the leading finger is on the 1 and 3 so we count 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4
Three fingers in to four is still 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4 so depending on how we use the three fingers, two things will happen when we start counting them off:
a/ if we just go in one direction say, fore middle ring fore middle ring then the 1 will change on each pass to the next finger,
so first time one the fore, second time on the middle, third time on the ring and so it continues reinforcing the idea of three or triplets.
b/ if we go back and forwards acrss the fingers as in fore middle ring middle fore middle ring middle then the 1 will always be on the starting finger the same as any two finger technique, so now threes or triplets implyed or used.

Next miss-conception of the self taught player is that in trying to count off my fingers when alternating it is easier to count in two than threes.
Well if that is so then count in multiples of two not three.
two is an even number, three is an odd but the both divide into six??????

Here is another example of how it really works.

If we assign each finger as such fore = 1, middle = 2, ring = 3, ( or visa versa for your own style)
then use an eight note C scale up and down for the example we have this, C D E F G A B C B A G F E D C

a/ In using two fingers the leading finger will start play up and down and will return to C as the leading finger. So if we play the scale four times in a row the leading finger will always play the root C.
b/ In using the three fingers we assign 1 = fore, & = middle, 2 = ring and we count 1 & 2 & 1 & 2 & etc then the C scale will go up on the leading finger say 1, but finish coming back down on the 2.
So if you play it up and down four times each time you go up you alternate the start on either the fore or the ring finger...the C at the octave will always be the middle finger in evey one.
So in all examples it is still 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4 but rather than than in the two finger which is 1-2-3-4, that is four syllables spoken or counted that can be divided by two. to bring us back to the one, three fingers uses 1 & 2 & which is four syllables spoken or counted to bring us back to the one.

The big advantage is that in three finger any finger is learning to be the one ( after a while even the middle finger can lead if it wants to because the 1 & 2 & is internalised not to expect one finger to always try and want to be on the 1 the beat, the feel, call it what you want) but in two finger that leading finger is that crutch which your playing is supported by. So we have the common complaint of fingers tripping over each other or raking or double hitting to be on the "one".....because that finger is now associated as with that task. Take away that task as in compound time sigs. and the technique will fail or require some hard work for the average two finger player understand that music flows so any finger needs to be ables to follow another regardless of beat or where the "one" falls.

So there you have it, it is all in the mind how we use our fingers because if we assign restrictions to them then they will use them. The point is understanding meeting points so
1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12 we find that the two meets on every other number so its 2-4-6-8-10-12 but three meets on 6 and 12. so takes that over the length of a song or score and we see that indeed there is a beat but is it just spread out more for three fingers than for two....if we want to understand it.
So now in this three finger use the ring finger gets as much use so is an equal partner in the technique so develops as such. if not used then it becomes just a weak hanger on that when called to be used cannot really so is dismissed again to not being used.
The saying of "use it or lose it" rings very true in this situation, because we cannot just decide to do it, in much the same way as we cannot decide for the sake of it to run a marathon later on today and expect to be OK doing it...unless we are prepared and trained.
The same applies to the fingers.
 
#62
eddododo said:
I might as well yell this at the moon, but...
For all the time it takes to reign in the awkwardness and reap the advantages of 3 finger technique, you could have just honed your 2 finger chops.
Fwiw ive never MET a player who could do more with 3 fingers than I can with 2. And ive never heard a 3 finger player who bests (or even keeps up with) the best 2'ers.

In fact gary willis is the only guy I find noteworthy, and he is much more meticulous and dedicated in practice than anyone I can think of
Click to expand...


It was challenging to switch over but I feel there are definite advantages to Gary Willis's 3 finger technique, some that I'm only being able to exploit now but for me, the biggest advantage, is that I can play pain free for hours whereas before I had pretty bad RSI in my wrist.

I've been studying Willis's technique since October of last year I think that by the time October rolls around again I should definitely have it all under fingers, at least for the right hand,...so I don't think a year is too much of an investment to play pain free and overall have a higher level of facility on the instrument.

This is about a month old http://youtu.be/GqNBbPx2UJA I've come a ways since then but it's a fair assessment of how far I've come with the technique in about 3.5 months. I'm not claiming it's a good solo by any means, so please try and ignore the bad phrasing and not choices hehehe.

Now the left hand, that's a completely different story and that's going to take a whole lot longer than a year....but hey:

Gary Willis - solo Big Wave (Tribal Tech) - YouTube That's awesome
 
#65
henry2513 said:
It was challenging to switch over but I feel there are definite advantages to Gary Willis's 3 finger technique, some that I'm only being able to exploit now but for me, the biggest advantage, is that I can play pain free for hours whereas before I had pretty bad RSI in my wrist.

I've been studying Willis's technique since October of last year I think that by the time October rolls around again I should definitely have it all under fingers, at least for the right hand,...so I don't think a year is too much of an investment to play pain free and overall have a higher level of facility on the instrument.

This is about a month old Footprints - YouTube I've come a ways since then but it's a fair assessment of how far I've come with the technique in about 3.5 months. I'm not claiming it's a good solo by any means, so please try and ignore the bad phrasing and not choices hehehe.

Now the left hand, that's a completely different story and that's going to take a whole lot longer than a year....but hey:

Gary Willis - solo Big Wave (Tribal Tech) - YouTube That's awesome
Click to expand...

Technique looks great, very solid looking use of the fingers. One thing i will say, and it is about your expectations in the post......don't have any. One of the biggest reason i come across in students/players quiting or giving up a new idea is expectations. In accepting playing any instrument, there are no expectations, we do it because we want to learn and improve on it.
Projecting our goals as targets means we look for improvement and in looking for it we tend to miss the point that improvement happens in many different ways.
It is not a gauranteed plateau that happens in regular periods or intervals.
Also add in to the mix that few players are able quantify any wider improvements.....only the ones they are expecting or looking for, then we could say they are not qualifiying any decision to quit based on all the facts.

It is a "leap of faith" that just in doing the right things that we will improve, so we accept that and continue on that path and if we have to look for a sign then look back and we will see we are an improved player today that we were last year.:bassist:
 
#67
Fergie Fulton said:
Technique looks great, very solid looking use of the fingers. One thing i will say, and it is about your expectations in the post......don't have any. One of the biggest reason i come across in students/players quiting or giving up a new idea is expectations. In accepting playing any instrument, there are no expectations, we do it because we want to learn and improve on it.
Projecting our goals as targets means we look for improvement and in looking for it we tend to miss the point that improvement happens in many different ways.
It is not a gauranteed plateau that happens in regular periods or intervals.
Also add in to the mix that few players are able quantify any wider improvements.....only the ones they are expecting or looking for, then we could say they are not qualifiying any decision to quit based on all the facts.

It is a "leap of faith" that just in doing the right things that we will improve, so we accept that and continue on that path and if we have to look for a sign then look back and we will see we are an improved player today that we were last year.:bassist:
Click to expand...


Thank you and that's great advice, I think that's my main source of frustration - my expectations about how quickly I should be progressing. I really like that leap of faith mentality.
 
#68
I have been trying everything to get an even tone on all three fingers. I can't even get my middle and index to sound the same.

I made a recording. What do you think of the different tones in each finger? Is it as bad as how I hear it, or do many of you have the same thing?
 
#70
From a physical standpoint, how does playing with 3 fingers actually make anyone play faster? I abandoned learning the technique because after thinking about it, your fingers are still susceptible to the same amount of delay between plucks, whether you are using 2 or 3 fingers. Am i off base here?

I could see a potential increase in stamina though, as now the work is split between 3 fingers instead of 2. Other than that i see little advantage though. I've seen some extremely fast players using just 2 fingers.
 
#71
I recently switched to 3 finger after learning the NHOP plucking style on upright and found it really easy after not being able to really ever play with 3 fingers. What he advocates and made the biggest difference was the order in which your hand plucks the strings. Most bass players pluck always starting with Index-middle and for 3 finger they add the ring so 1-2-3. What he advocated in the lesson I learned was to go ring-middle- index or 3-2-1. What I was shown was place your hand on table and tap 1 finger at a time index-middle-ring to keep doing it and adding speed. Then switch to ring-middle-index and it should not only be faster but more natural feeling to most but not always the case. For me this was the case that it feel much more natural and smoother for me. when plucking 321 It is easier to skip strings and rake and get and even attack once you develop a little strength in your ringer finger. YMMV.
 
#72
Tupac said:
I would advise you all to watch Invalid Link Removed. He addresses it.
Click to expand...

This +1. Alex Webster has that down to a science without loss of tone.
Nick of Cephalic Carnage as well.

I don't use all three fingers ALL the time, slow paced stuff doesn't really call for it, but if I'm playing slightly more up tempo music I will do it. The ring finger does seem to lose just a little tone if you don't practice it and finding ways to keep it from sounding like triplets is indeed an obstacle. These aren't deal breakers, just something you have to work at.
 
#73
Seanto said:
From a physical standpoint, how does playing with 3 fingers actually make anyone play faster? I abandoned learning the technique because after thinking about it, your fingers are still susceptible to the same amount of delay between plucks, whether you are using 2 or 3 fingers. Am i off base here?

I could see a potential increase in stamina though, as now the work is split between 3 fingers instead of 2. Other than that i see little advantage though. I've seen some extremely fast players using just 2 fingers.
Click to expand...

From a physical view point it is in the application, speed is a by-product of technique and dexterity within the application.

Let me say again "i put no real musical advantage in working on being faster". If you work on better material you will get faster... under normal circumstances.
But if there is a physical reason you may need some additional exercises to help bring you 'up to speed' with what you should be able to do.

So here is a musicial situation,
The tempo is 150BPM, all eigth notes, so how does playing with one, two or three fingers make that any faster?

Since 150BPM is the target all you can do is make it easier to play 150BPM........unless the situation needs more dexterity.

So lets add in four string crossing now there may be a need of more dexterity because of the area to be covered.
If you lose something in a field, three people all huddled together looking for it is just as fast a one, but there are 3 pairs of eyes looking.
Spread out in a line and you will move at the same pace but cover the ground faster, so you will be quicker in finding it.
On the bass, more fingers can cover more strings so the effect is it is faster because dexterity can be used.....not speed of action but better use of action.....remember you are playing at 150BPM so that is the factor for physical speed, not how fast your fingers move.

Take that a step further and add in triplets across the four strings using octaves and cromatics, now you have a real use for dexterity that will sound like you are playing faster....but your tempo is still 150, so it cannot be faster, but it can sub-divide and use more notes.....more notes can be played with more fingers.....or should that be, more varied notes of a different type can be played with more fingers within a time frame.

I have found that most developed players are fast enough to play what they need to play, un-developed players like the idea of playing fast... but have neither the patience or understanding to develop it.
In fact, most will waste time working on things that the believe will make them faster...faster, they actually develop what they want slower by not working on the correct ideas because they believe they know better.

If a player works on dexterity within musical ideas they will get faster whether they use it or not, then that leads to the next "speed related issue", stamina. No point in being fast if you cannot sustain it, and that is a different criteria again.:)
 
#75
Seanto said:
Good explanation. So speed is not necessarily the goal with 3 finger technique, but efficiency. I can see that.
Click to expand...

You got it, and in time you will develop what you need....and more, but many still believe speed is the point....i mean if a car has a top speed of 90mph then welding two together does not mean there top speed is now 180 never mind weld three together to get a top speed of 370mph.........anyway what is the point of a fast car in a 30mph zone?:eek:
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back