Disadvantages to playing with 3 fingers

[Fergie Fulton]

I found that lack of consistency of tone and articulation was the main factor which caused me to drop 3 finger technique. I felt like I was never really in control of the sound as much as I would have liked. Now, I end up playing with one finger most of the time for that reason - I get a much more even sound.

Thanks Adam, another great video, and I love the answer to the *old*question about speed which is "As bass players we don,t usually have to play fast",
a point many miss when learning. Players need to be comfortable in there own "playing skin", sure there are lots of styles and techniques, but in the end it's about what is needed and required and be proud to do so, not feel negated or a second rate player for doing so.

I have a related question: who here plays, two-finger style, with the index and ring finger instead of the index and middle fingers? Is there any difference in tone, more even or less even? How about playability with those fingers? After all, they are closer to each other in length.

Cheers.

I regularly use different fingers and different combinations to achieve different timbre from my playing. As I said previous I embrace those tonal difference. Depending on what I want I can get pulsing sound, out of phase, sometimes a sort of flange effect sound, just but using a wider striking area along the length of the string. This becomes very noticeable when I play index and ring or index and little finger. What I want is the different timbres I get from not producing the same tone on every strike.
In the link*there are no effects on the bass the sound is generated by playing and using a wide striking area along the string....so each note sounds slightly different, but the "one" is strong so it has a sort of pulse/throb to it.

This Body Of Mine - YouTube

*Length has nothing to do with it, when playing we really should have a slight bend or curl to our fingers. How much should you have?......enough to bring the all fingertips almost level or in line with each other with each other Is a good starting place.

 

[delta7fred]

I never really gave this much thought until I started visiting TB.

I play with 3 and never think about which I use and when, they seem to take care of themselves. I am usually too busy concentrating on singing to worry about fingers.

They all sound pretty much the same to me, but with 2 noisy friggin guitarists and a loud drummer who can tell.

 

[maturanesa]

Is very hard to place accents in different places. And once you get it, you realize that you are slower than when you played with two fingers, because its more tricky to control...

 

[keiththebassist]

Is very hard to place accents in different places. And once you get it, you realize that you are slower than when you played with two fingers, because its more tricky to control...

all it takes is practice. I started to nail down playng three fingers but accenting every 1 in a four beat count. Once you get confotable with placing the accents in the right places it really helps for syncopated rhythms. It is more tricky to control but that all comes with practice.

IMO there is not disadvantage to having a solid 3 finger technique, it's just that's it's not always best for all situations. But I see absolutely no disadvantage to having another tool in your bag of tricks for when it's called for.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Some close up three finger playing in the link.....it's really easy when you know how to count it.
The fingers after a while look like the effect you see in spoked wheels, in that in looks to travel backwards sometimes. The coin is just there to teach the ulnar side of the hand how to play with dexterity, rather than power. In holding the coin the ringfinger tendons stretch to allow the independence needed to help master this type of three finger playing.

Ceremony - YouTube

 

[carlthegroover]

I regularly use different fingers and different combinations to achieve different timbre from my playing. As I said previous I embrace those tonal difference.

*Length has nothing to do with it, when playing we really should have a slight bend or curl to our fingers. How much should you have?......enough to bring the all fingertips almost level or in line with each other with each other Is a good starting place.

Yeah, but if you play with the index and ring fingers, would the tone be more even than if you play with the index and middle? And how about speed? Is it the same?

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Yeah, but if you play with the index and ring fingers, would the tone be more even than if you play with the index and middle? And how about speed? Is it the same?

Simple answer no to all.

Sound is generated, as far as the hands are concerned by how the finger strikes the string. Now this is a very very complicated internalised action we learn to be second nature without thinking.
Angle of attack, plane of follow through, weight of attack, pressure of the fretting hand fingers, the amount of sustain used, the correct time to finish the note, the correct amount of muting etc.... All things will vary the sound in some way

Of all these things weight of attack will have the most variation because that is how hard or strong the finger used strikes the string.
Fact is we all have different use of out hands, but the common thing is we use the thumb, index and middle finger more than any other fingers on the dominant hand, and much more than the other non-dominant hand.
So in every day life we use and exercise one half of the hand at the expense of the otherwithout realising it. So may things in out life from door handles to remote controls to even this...how many of us are using all there fingers to type???? and if not what fingers are we using?
So it is no wonder that when using the middle, ring or little fingers we find it easier not to use them.

So if we take up bass at 16, and try to use the middle, ring or little finger we will give up because there is an easier way to do it.......use the index and middle, they have had 16 years of life and use in such matters of dexterity, the others have not. We have a skill called handedness based in Laterality on how and why we use our hands.
Some of us are single handed, left or right,
some are cross handed or cross dominant,
some are ambidexterious, which is different from cross dominant in that it can be learned.

Another thing, is it is believed we have a gene in our make up that decides the gain or reward from tasks. So this a genetic wiring that after trying something we decide if it is worth it. So when learning to use three there will come a time where we will rationalize the effort to the return and decide whether to continue or give up.

So 16 years of use cannot be balanced up an a few months, or even a few years when learning to use the non-dominant fingers, that's why so many give up the retuen is not worth the effort when ther is an easier way to get the same result. Those that understand and want a different result will continue.

This result we want above all else, say in three finger use, is to use three fingers. Nothing else comes into it, not tone, not speed, not ease of use, nothing...... the task is to use three fingers. But we project the result and will give up if we decide it is not worth it based on our own expectation rather than the final result.

So if we now start putting your expectations to this use, we will evauate it is not worth it, if because we expand the task to the end result of tone speed, dexterity, etc, rather than concentrate on the task in hand we evaluate it it on a differnt set of critera...critera we already know works.
Yes all those other things will fall in place at somepoint, but the main core of the task has to be learned, remember the other fingers are 16 years behind in use and type of use.

As for tone, well thats a personal thing so i never really bother about it, my amp, strings, pick-up etc will give me more variation of tone than i could ever ever expect from my fingers. Tone is personal self imposed crutch that can hinder a player rather than help one. It takes a very very experienced player to deal and understand tone issues.

 

[Skitch it!]

I used to play with 3 exclusively for 8 years then switched back to 2, now I use a mixture depending on what is required.

The main point that I found difficult is string crossing. Using 3 on slower tracks that don't involve a lot of string crossing is pretty straight forward, playing the head for Donna Lee with all the crossing involved is a very different story.

 

[Skitch it!]

As for tone, well thats a personal thing so i never really bother about it, my amp, strings, pick-up etc will give me more variation of tone than i could ever ever expect from my fingers. Tone is personal self imposed crutch that can hinder a player rather than help one. It takes a very very experienced player to deal and understand tone issues.

I....er...yeah?

 

[Fergie Fulton]

I used to play with 3 exclusively for 8 years then switched back to 2, now I use a mixture depending on what is required.

The main point that I found difficult is string crossing. Using 3 on slower tracks that don't involve a lot of string crossing is pretty straight forward, playing the head for Donna Lee with all the crossing involved is a very different story.

I agree but that is the nature of the task, not the technique being used.
If we understand that we can the range of any technique is from non existent to poor to good to great to excellent then depending in what category we fall into will determine whether is is hard or easy. So the head of Donna Lee or the head of Hoochie Coochie man to someone with non-existent technique is the same task, they cannot play either.
And so it is with any finger technique.

It takes years to internalise a technique and I goes through those stages of development in some way, but we do not notice it until we apply it to something....and usually something inappropriate to test it.
So in developing anything common sense dictates we use what works best, and work to bring the technique or skill to compliment and in some cases take over what we already have.

So you Skitch it, when you play have a choice to try Donna Lee with three or two fingers, so you will choose the one that works best.....as it should be, but that should not stop you developing new ideas and techniques further because they cannot be applied yet to what you know......yet.

I....er...yeah?

Well I have been around playing music for over 40years now and have seen some amazing hissy fits concerning tone from a wide range of musicians, managers, promoters and anyone else that wants to dip their oar in that water.
If the tone of a particular bass, set up, amp or rig is a players tone,then that is not for him to take the credit, it is its his gear.
So if the gear breaks down or that tone is not right, or even can't be found then the player suffers or does not play as good as he should because "his sound" is not there.
So that "tone" is their crutch, the personalise it, give it qualities only they recognise, and believe the need it to perform. Then a few years later, new tour they have different gear and different tone and still preaching from the same book of " my sound".

Once when I was packing down and just about to put my bass in its case, some said to me "that bass of yours sounds great". So I handed it to him and said " what does it sound like now? He said with a puzzled look, " we'll nothing" and I replied " exactly.......it's nothing to do with the bass.....it's me".
Point of fact if I sound good off the stage it's because the engineers have done the job, not me. The out front sound which a majority of an audience hears is not of my doing, again experience tells me that the engineer will make me sound how I need to, not how I want to.
Then bring in the monitor engineer and his mix and he will give me, regardless of what cab combinations I use, with my "great classic valve amp tone",a sound through a 12 or pair of 12" solid state monitors??????? Really tone is subjective to the player, when really what it needs to be is practical.

Now I tour a lot, different counties in Europe, different rigs hired in, some times no rig at all, straight in the desk. Sometimes it's what on my gear rider, sometimes it "or equivalent" sometimes it's nothing. Some of the amps are so old or basic you have never even seen them or heard of them.
In certain Eastern European Counties they just do not have access to modern gear.

So experience tells me it is not an issue because I define the sound of the bass to fit the situation so it is an audible frequency that can be picked out in the mix.
Any tone I use is a functional tone to suit what I need, or an engineer needs to fill out the sound.
Sometimes I do not even get the chance to hear it on stage, so the only reference I have to what is going on is by just playing and trust that what I play is being heard. Now that situation arises because of certain room and stage conditions in which the louder the bass is,the more inaudible it becomes due to resonance.
So for me I never do a sound check unless the engineer or some else wants one, it is a courtesy to them to give them a chance to work out any problems or get a feel for what is involved.
A line check is all I need, after all I have better things to do when out touring than do pointless sound checks in empty halls or rooms.
My stage sound is functional and I get that within a minute, the rest of it is for others to decide not me.

 

[Skitch it!]

So you Skitch it, when you play have a choice to try Donna Lee with three or two fingers, so you will choose the one that works best.....as it should be, but that should not stop you developing new ideas and techniques further because they cannot be applied yet to what you know......yet.


Well I have been around playing music for over 40years now and have seen some amazing hissy fits concerning tone from a wide range of musicians, managers, promoters and anyone else that wants to dip their oar in that water.
If the tone of a particular bass, set up, amp or rig is a players tone,then that is not for him to take the credit, it is its his gear.

I agree with the aspect of technique, I constantly adjust technique for purpose. Ideally for difficult heads matching the fluidity of sax or any other instrument, I've found 4 finger technique the most fluid way around them. The main problem, the same as 3 finger tech is string crossing and muting.


I've never worked with guys who threw hissy fits over tone tbh, the best of them will adjust how they play to compensate. You will always be at the mercy of the sound engineer, but unless you have a great fundamental tone and requisite attack in your own style then there is not a lot an engineer can do with that for a start. Gear helps but it is not the total sum of parts whatsoever, as far as I'm concerned the fingers and touch are a v.big aspect to personal fundamental tone and identity. Even on $60 pawn shop guitars.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

I agree with the aspect of technique, I constantly adjust technique for purpose. Ideally for difficult heads matching the fluidity of sax or any other instrument, I've found 4 finger technique the most fluid way around them. The main problem, the same as 3 finger tech is string crossing and muting.


I've never worked with guys who threw hissy fits over tone tbh, the best of them will adjust how they play to compensate. You will always be at the mercy of the sound engineer, but unless you have a great fundamental tone and requisite attack in your own style then there is not a lot an engineer can do with that for a start. Gear helps but it is not the total sum of parts whatsoever, as far as I'm concerned the fingers and touch are a v.big aspect to personal fundamental tone and identity. Even on $60 pawn shop guitars.

Again this is where expanding on what we do comes in. Left hand muting then becomes the way to expand the right hand playing, by sharing duties.
Again this has to be given time to learn and become naturally instinctive to use.
Techniques or adaptations are born out a necessity to enable use to play what we want, the end result of any technique has to be based in practical easy use for the purpose of playing.
So of the only way to mute when playing say classical five finger style on a bass is from the fretting hand, then so be it.
Only last year I had the pleasure of playing a festival where I met Kennan Shaw, bass player for the Candye Kane Band.
He used a small strip of foam under his strings near the bridge to give him some mute to his sound. He also slid it forward for some songs, back for others to vary how it affected the strings. Needless to say I now carry a small strip of foam with my P bass to help me when that mute bass sound is needed.

I fully agree that a players attack, fingering, dampening etc is part of the any tone they use and it just makes any bass sound better than many would expect. It's the old story of any hack player can make a £5000 bass sound like a £50 one but good players can make a £50 one sound like a hack.

 

[Skitch it!]

Techniques or adaptations are born out a necessity to enable use to play what we want, the end result of any technique has to be based in practical easy use for the purpose of playing.

I fully agree that a players attack, fingering, dampening etc is part of the any tone they use and it just makes any bass sound better than many would expect. It's the old story of any hack player can make a £5000 bass sound like a £50 one but good players can make a £50 one sound like a hack.

Some techniques are just more efficient and fluid for a lot of different things, but nothing worth doing ever comes easy there. Bass has moved on a lot from back in the day, more specialized techniques have evolved.

'The old story', I haven't heard that one before.

I remember a story about Jeff Beck in a dressing room picking up a v.cheap banged up guitar left there, the writer stated he sounded just like Jeff Beck.

The better players I know will adjust v.quickly.

 

[henry2513]

Some close up three finger playing in the link.....it's really easy when you know how to count it.
The fingers after a while look like the effect you see in spoked wheels, in that in looks to travel backwards sometimes. The coin is just there to teach the ulnar side of the hand how to play with dexterity, rather than power. In holding the coin the ringfinger tendons stretch to allow the independence needed to help master this type of three finger playing.

Ceremony - YouTube

That's a great tip, I'm going to give that a shot. Is it a quarter?

 

[henry2513]

I'm currently learning how to use Gary Willi's 3 finger method and it's specifically geared towards making string crossings easier. It also assigns muting duties to the right hand vs. the left.

I think it's helpful especially for playing stuff like funk grooves.

I'm still working on incorporating it for playing stuff like Donna Lee and soloing, it's not quite intuitive yet when I do that stuff, I still need to think about whether or not I'm playing in open or closed position....but it is fluid. I'll woodshed it and upload a clip of it in the next couple of weeks.

Here's something I did this weekend with some friends of mine, Incorporating both palm muting and 3 fingers.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

A very poor imitation of Gary Willis but I'm working at it

 

[Skitch it!]

I'm currently learning how to use Gary Willi's 3 finger method and it's specifically geared towards making string crossings easier. It also assigns muting duties to the right hand vs. the left.

I think it's helpful especially for playing stuff like funk grooves.

I'm still working on incorporating it for playing stuff like Donna Lee and soloing, it's not quite intuitive yet when I do that stuff, I still need to think about whether or not I'm playing in open or closed position....but it is fluid. I'll woodshed it and upload a clip of it in the next couple of weeks.

That's a very involved technique indeed, I remember watching his tutorial vid back in the mid '90s, it seriously made me rethink approaching harmony, without even going near that specific tech for the right hand. I did hear that Willis was nicknamed Mr Logic back in his study days, I can well believe that, very efficient way of assigning things.

I have attempted to work with his book 'Fingerboard Harmony for Bass', but as others have found too it's a v.tall order.

 

[henry2513]

That's a very involved technique indeed, I remember watching his tutorial vid back in the mid '90s, it seriously made me rethink approaching harmony, without even going near that specific tech for the right hand. I did hear that Willis was nicknamed Mr Logic back in his study days, I can well believe that, very efficient way of assigning things.

I have attempted to work with his book 'Fingerboard Harmony for Bass', but as others have found too it's a v.tall order.

Yes, it is very involved, as I found, mastering the techniques in the Tutorial Vid is just the beginning, I've found the transition from 2-3 pretty painful but well worth it, I'm free of hand and wrist pain now and I'm getting to the point where I can see the "light".

Fingerboard Harmony is much more complex than it looks to be at first glance, once I'm more comfortable with this 3 finger technique I plan to spend alot more time with the book.

 

[PerlNinja]

Lack of fingers to help mute and anchor.

You could use the pinkie, but that's a bit unwieldy in my experience.

Funny that, because my experiences are the exact opposite Then again I'm not exactly using the "standard" 3 finger technique. I keep my thumb anchored on the side of the neck, pinky for muting, and ring finger sometimes for muting, sometimes it'll happily join in for some picking, so it's more of a 2.5 finger thing...

 

[Fergie Fulton]

That's a great tip, I'm going to give that a shot. Is it a quarter?

Slightly bigger than a quarter I think, it's a UK 2p coin which is about an inch in diameter. You may find a washer in a hardware store that has this diameter if you want to replicate that exact size.

Quick explanation why it works.
The ring and middle finger share a tendon function, that is why they move together, because together they are stronger.
As I have explained in many threads and videos the hand has two very distinct functions and two very distinct sides.
The radial side is the thumb, index and middle fingers, and designed for dexterity,the ulnar side is the ring and little finger and are designed for power.

There are small muscles called lumbricals which are usual because they attach to the tendons between the fingers to the tendons in the hand rather than any bone like regular muscles. Along with the flexor muscles which are intertwined around fingers the bend and straighten the fingers.
What the coin does is when you first hold it it the little finger as in the video, the ring finger will bend with it. All you do is straighten the ring finger will holding the coin.
To start with it will not straighten because it is tight, It will want to straighten the little finger as well and the coin may fall out. So if you want you can put the coin in and without a bass just practice the movement of straightening the finger. In time ( over a couple of weeks )the action will loosen and you will be able to hold the coin without dropping it, and eventually stop using the coin altogether.

If when playing you start to over do it the coin will fall out so take a break and give the hands a rub. It s a sort of built in protection mechanism to stop you over doing it. The size of the coin in my hands is fine, if the coin is to small the fingers will curl to tight to hold it, so if need be use a bigger one rather than a smaller one. Again the idea is to over time gently stretch the muscles and tendon, so take it easy....trust me you will see improvement in a day or two, so don't think you can speed it up by doing more, easy does it.
By giving the little finger this task we are in fact helping it become independent as well.
Rather than restrict the little finger down by holding it or restraining it, we let it hold itself down by giving it this simple task. If the little finger was restrained,
then it is not holding itself down, so the stretching does not develop correctly for what we want which is an elastic tension that can be controlled rather than a loose finger that cannot.

 

[henry2513]

Slightly bigger than a quarter I think, it's a UK 2p coin which is about an inch in diameter. You may find a washer in a hardware store that has this diameter if you want to replicate that exact size.

Quick explanation why it works.
The ring and middle finger share a tendon function, that is why they move together, because together they are stronger.
As I have explained in many threads and videos the hand has two very distinct functions and two very distinct sides.
The radial side is the thumb, index and middle fingers, and designed for dexterity,the ulnar side is the ring and little finger and are designed for power.

There are small muscles called lumbricals which are usual because they attach to the tendons between the fingers to the tendons in the hand rather than any bone like regular muscles. Along with the flexor muscles which are intertwined around fingers the bend and straighten the fingers.
What the coin does is when you first hold it it the little finger as in the video, the ring finger will bend with it. All you do is straighten the ring finger will holding the coin.
To start with it will not straighten because it is tight, It will want to straighten the little finger as well and the coin may fall out. So if you want you can put the coin in and without a bass just practice the movement of straightening the finger. In time ( over a couple of weeks )the action will loosen and you will be able to hold the coin without dropping it, and eventually stop using the coin altogether.

If when playing you start to over do it the coin will fall out so take a break and give the hands a rub. It s a sort of built in protection mechanism to stop you over doing it. The size of the coin in my hands is fine, if the coin is to small the fingers will curl to tight to hold it, so if need be use a bigger one rather than a smaller one. Again the idea is to over time gently stretch the muscles and tendon, so take it easy....trust me you will see improvement in a day or two, so don't think you can speed it up by doing more, easy does it.
By giving the little finger this task we are in fact helping it become independent as well.
Rather than restrict the little finger down by holding it or restraining it, we let it hold itself down by giving it this simple task. If the little finger was restrained,
then it is not holding itself down, so the stretching does not develop correctly for what we want which is an elastic tension that can be controlled rather than a loose finger that cannot.

This is great info thank you very much, I'm definitely going to do this, it makes perfect sense.